"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsmtsm@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
news:09f2d38b-6eaf-44f4-b3a4-e35f9f75efa9@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> A reminder: These threads are having a lot of trust issues at this
> time in their life.
Hmmm. Could be the low scary voice that's giving them trouble.
> ANGEL
> Season Three, Episode 12: "Provider"
> This is like a throwback in some ways to the early days of ATS.
> Although it makes some attempts to incorporate the Connor story as a
> motivation, it's mainly about the group being a team, coming up
> against a proximate enemy or three in the course of their detective
> work, and disagreeing over how to best run their struggling business.
> Angel's story even features someone who's basically a featureless jerk
> who's meant to be somewhat sympathetic, like a few S1 guest
> characters. Hey, I notice that I correctly predicted that the visual
> of people positively swarming the hotel would be forgotten by next
> week. Not surprisingly, "Provider" is also a throwback in the sense
> of not being particularly interesting. I have yet to find anyone
> ready to get behind this one and give it any praise beyond "I like it
> okay." Any takers?
A difficult challenge. Lets see...
Well, first off, the thing about weaker S1 episodes like I Fall To Pieces
or
Expecting is how actively annoying their bad parts were. There's nothing
terribly annoying about this episode. Which isn't exactly praise, but at
least there's nothing to hate.
This episode is unfortunately saddled with a couple awkward tasks for this
part of the greater arc. First there's two relationships that need to be
built up so that they can later be torn down - but not built up too much
since part of the idea is that they never quite get built. Which kind of
forces this episode to be rather tepid about it - especially since the
heavy
lifting for this thread is assigned to the next episode. That's not too
good now, but there are some attributes, starting with establishing the
story as an Angel/Wesley parallel of unrequited love. The payoff of
contrasting reactions, perversely refocused onto Connor is mainly in the
future, but it has to begin somewhere. In the meantime, some of the
personal connections work nicely. As sappy as it is, I'm rather fond of
the
closing scene of Angel and Cordy (and Connor in the middle) sleepily
imagining a future that they assume will be together. Plus, "Chipmunk
robots on ice."
Connor is the harder task. Essentially, the episode is obligated to keep
hammering at how much Angel loves Connor, so that the pain of having him
taken away hits as hard as possible. It's not that anybody doubts his
love.
It's just that it takes time and repetition for the audience to fully feel
it. So this episode has to take one for the good of the series and
deserves
some credit for doing so relatively painlessly. That does allow for
vintage
Angel dorkiness in the opening money in the couch sequence.
On a much sharper plane there are the brief Holtz/Justine scenes. While I
don't really get the point of pinioning her hand to the table - besides
the
jokes about it - the personal dynamics between the two are advanced
nicely.
I'm also struck by Justine's remark, "...feeling something - is better
than
feeling nothing." I'd forgotten about that line. Recently we'd talked
about a possible parallel between her and Buffy. I'm still not inclined
to
take that too far, but boy is that a suggestive line to be uttered as
Buffy
sinks into her Spike obsession. There does seem to be a fair amount of
thematic cross-over between the series - even though the connection is
somewhat distant.
The feature of the episode is probably a general sense of quiet goofiness.
Dorky Angel would be one example. My favorite is probably the ridiculous
computer simulation marking Fred's neck where her head will be cut off.
At this point I'm tapped out, 'cause the truth is that this episode pretty
much sucks, for reasons you've pointed out, and I agree with your Weak
rating. But, hey, I tried to meet your challenge.
> Rating: Weak
> Season Three, Episode 13: "Waiting In The Wings"
> Okay, Joss has written and directed a handful of episodes for the
> show. Where his BTVS and _Firefly_ outings are mostly highlights, I
> didn't rank any of _Angel_'s written-and-directed-by-Joss shows above
> Decent the first time around (there is one later on that my gut tells
> me may manage a Good this time, we'll see). [For the record, I'm
> excluding "City Of" from consideration here for the co-writing credit
> as well as his substantial re-writing of "Untouched."]
I thought City Of was credited just to him. Be that as it may, he gets a
lot of co-writing credits in AtS, and not so many solo. Other than City
Of,
I think the closest he gets to a "BIG" episode is A Hole in the World and
the closing Not Fade Away (which is also a co-writing credit). I suppose
it
suggests a somewhat more distant connection to this series during most of
its making. (S5 being the main exception.) Joss's episodes seem to fill
in
the cracks more so than drive the series.
Waiting in the Wings is a pretty good example of that. It does what's
necessary at this point in the greater arc, which is important at this
moment, but hardly the centerpiece of the season. (Other than falling
roughly in the middle.) It's impression, though, is much more stand alone
than it is ongoing arc. It reminds me of BtVS S1 episodes with lots of
ongoing character development in stand alone stories. I also sense Joss
indulging himself in some creative free play.
Unlike BtVS S1, however, there's a beautiful elegance to this episode that
charms my socks off. Joss and M.E. are more deft at what they do now.
And
I find myself feeling the tragic romance of the triple examples of
shattered
unrequited love. I find it a very easy episode to enjoy - one of the
easiest of the whole AtS run - to just fall into the mood of it and be
swept
away.
> The other
> shows handled by the boss tend to be full of sparkling dialogue and
> character moments, and often throw in a gimmick that becomes an
> integral part of the hour and leads to something particularly
> meaningful for the characters. Episodes like "Waiting In The Wings"
> start with sparkling dialogue and character moments, throw in a
> gimmick that has little to do with much of anything, and end with me
> wondering what the point of the whole thing is.
What's to understand? The ballet story (in a Sunnydale like inner demons
come to life way) parallels the unrequited love stories of Wesley and
Angel,
culminating in the shattering of all their false dreams. Along the way it
showcases some of the feelings of such an experience - from giddy
hopefulness to devastation at the truth revealed. Mostly it centers on
the
falseness of the unrequited love feeling where the image of the beloved is
a
constructed fantasy of the mind. Perhaps more to the point is that it
speaks to obsession, which leads into the ensuing Wesley and Angel
stories.
For the AtS ongoing story it emotionally positions Angel and Wesley for
the
events to follow. Especially Wesley. This episode also demonstrates his
predilection for privately constructing his own reality. Makes it a
subtle
cautionary tale. More importantly, though, it prods him to withdraw
within
himself more. You've mentioned a couple of times how part of Wesley keeps
fearing that he's wrong in episodes to come. I think tied into that is
that
he fears revealing himself opens him to shame. That may be the lesson he
took from this episode's experience. My god, he almost revealed himself
to
Fred. He won't make that mistake again.
> I characterized it as
> a long tease, because it operates from the assumption that whether
> Angel and Cordelia get together is the most important issue of the
> series, and then spends the whole show getting them sexually close in
> a way that "doesn't count."
In a very amusing and sexy fashion. That's an episode highlight for me.
I
disagree with your assumption. To begin with, Wesley and Fred are
important
to this story too. More to the point, it's not the most important issue
of
the series. Just the most important issue of the moment. When you're
lovesick, other things get pushed into the background. But other bigger
things will take over. At least until they get lovesick again anyway.
> And then the ending, meant to be
> frustrating, inexplicably brings back the Groosalugg and tries to
> convince us that Cordelia has serious feelings for a character whose
> previous portrayal can be described by stealing Scythe's phrase: "a
> caricature of a cartoon."
That Groo is a lousy character is unfortunate. But that's not this
episode's fault. He's obviously the only character that can serve the
function called for. My problem with the ending is going for the surprise
alone. IMO there is inadequate time given to Angel absorbing the
implications. Of course there will be more in future episodes, but there
still needs to be more now to make this episode feel complete.
> Oddly, WITW does better with what's
> basically a straightforward love triangle story among the secondary
> characters - as Joss says, you sell the connection and the sweetness
> if your people are well defined enough to do it, but the audience's
> heart is naturally going to go with the one who gets left out. Maybe
> once in awhile the standards are better than the attempts at
> innovation?
All three stories are love triangles, but with the details suited to each
as
contrast. And I don't think Wesley's story is that secondary. I think
one
ought to feel his plight more because the fallout hits him most severely.
His path to hell just started.
> It's interesting to learn from the commentary about how
> much this one morphed during shooting as the team tried to get in
> touch with what it was about. I don't think it was enough to turn it
> into a satisfying whole.
> Rating: Decent
Excellent for me. It's one of my favorite AtS episodes. It's not
terribly
complicated, but it's well focused, and has Summer Glau and dancing and
masked swordsmen and some good smooching. I also really like the idea of
the ballerina frozen in time forever dancing the same dance the guy
imagines
is just for him. A sort of living representation of the ballerina music
box
forever twirling to the same tune.
> Season Three, Episode 14: "Couplet"
> And after a string of mostly light episodes, it's time for a light
> episode. "Couplet" is an episode divided to me, because there are a
> few parts that are really a lot of fun, and then the episode comes to
> a screeching, sucking halt whenever Cordelia's on screen. To
> reiterate my stance on "Couplet" vis-à-vis generic romantic comedy:
> "it's dull, I hate it, and these writers are better than this." The
> plus side includes a surprisingly entertaining encounter with an
> internet predator who's a tree, fallout from the Gunn/Fred office
> romance that sets Wesley up to feel alone. Best of all is Angel
> generally cracking the viewer up with his bad temper, and the best
> part of that is when he finds a way to be secure in his identity by
> getting a chance to be a hero through the power of pettiness.
> Probably the biggest difference in my reaction is towards Groo
> himself, who starts to develop an engaging naïve but honorable alien
> routine that leads to a few laughs; I found myself enjoying the
> character in, once again, scenes without Cordelia in them. Oh, and
> still not a fan of demon brothels.
> Rating: Decent
After that review I don't know why you didn't rate it Weak. I think I
liked
it better, though I rate it Decent too, and I don't quite get what you
dislike so much about Cordy in this (I thought the visionity joke worked
rather well), but I don't care to expend much effort on it. It's a pretty
forgettable episode that mostly moves the Groo story line along while
letting Angel and Wesley stew in their juices some. It does allow for
some
contrast between Angel and Wesley in how they're handling rejection.
> Season Three, Episode 15: "Loyalty"
> Now we shove Cordelia off-screen and hit some fucking paydirt, as we
> begin ATS's best three-episode run
Smile Time through Shells is a pretty good run I think. So is the Trial
through Redefinition. (I'd probably pick the latter as my favorite.)
This
is a great one too. It's definitely what sold me on S3 being a great AtS
season.
> and its best "last third of a
> season, more or less" run. "Loyalty," as has been commented, is
> mostly setup, but it's the kind of setup that I find engrossing,
> riveting, and any other adjective of that ilk you want to use.
Just about anything that happens before the end is setup. In a sense,
Epiphany is a setup for this, and everything to do with Darla or Connor is
a
setup for Angel slashing Connor's throat. I never have the sense that
Loyalty is in anyway diminished by its setup responsibilities. Hell,
meeting the Loa is one of the great features of the series. We're just in
the early part of a riveting tale. What AtS does best (when it does it -
which it too often doesn't) is leave you aching to know what happens next.
This is the start of such a sequence.
> Plenty
> of violence and machinations (and a giant cartoon hamburger, of
> course)
I can't tell you enough how much I love that cranky hamburger. This is
when
I really fell in love with the season. It sort of embodies how
preposterous
the events of S3 are, yet still managing to be powerful, pivotal and
astoundingly coherent. It's a liberating moment. If I can buy into a
talking hamburger, then all things are possible.
> going on, mostly with the help of Holtz's group, mainly to
> give the sense of hurtling towards something big, with Wesley and
> Holtz closing with a great speech-off.
That speech-off has gotten better for me on re-watch. I struggled a bit
to
follow its nuances first time through. It actually seemed a little
nonsensical then, though the emotional thrust and drama of it always came
through. I love the cool confidence of Wesley declaring that he would
have
found them eventually anyway and the delicious line about lying on the
floor
and gagging for a while.
Now it hangs together pretty much start to finish. The lamest moment, in
a
sense, is when Wesley tries to make the logical argument that they might
as
well kill him instead, since Angel is no more responsible for what Angelus
did than is Wesley. But it's supposed to be lame - an argument that has
no
chance of standing up to the furious response (which includes one of the
better expressions of appreciation for the Gypsy curse). In the making of
the argument you see Wesley lose most of his swagger as he can't help but
see how weak a case he's made.
One of the battles going on within Wesley right now is between rational
and
emotional understanding. Holtz's group is mostly making an emotional
appeal, though its logic isn't easily overcome either. (That deep scary
voice just reeks of authority.) But I think Wesley is struck more by the
weakness of his own logic, fearing that his notion of Angel's noble
mission
is what is based on emotional desires more than the cold facts. His
recent
experience with Fred already has him thinking that emotional desires only
prevent one from seeing clearly. Is he just rationalizing his support of
Angel now? What he seems to walk away from the encounter with - as he
expresses later - is the sense that he would do the same as Holtz. Even
Angel seems to admit that they could be right. Could the facts of the
situation be against him?
The climax of the episode brings Wesley's conflict to a head as his
emotional understanding of Angel's true heart is brought forth most
strongly - almost to the point of collapsing his fears - until a brutal
array of events matching the prophecy and a particularly unfortunate joke
by
Angel slam Wesley with "reality".
About Wesley's willingness to believe the prophecy, I think a big part of
it
is that the prophecy speaks to a fear that he really always has had about
Angel's vulnerability to Angelus. And right now it also seems to better
fit
the "facts" of Angel's true life story than the wishful thinking of his
redemption journey. In Wesley's current state of mind (which is also
showing signs of vintage Wesley madness under stress), it actually seems
very logical. (I'm guessing that the absurdity of a talking hamburger is
intended to be a clue to the folly of his logic, while perversely helping
to
get him thinking the unthinkable.)
> Oh, and Sahjhan of the strange
> motivations suggesting that he's ready to be a major player too, and
> making his deal with Lilah. Ye gods, this is good.
It's been a year, I think, since I watched this sequence, but I seem to
remember thinking this was his best episode. The irony of being late
indeed. Is there any explanation for the figures carved onto his face?
> Most of the
> complaints about the episode have focused on not buying Wesley buying
> in to the prophecy, but some of the posts in the original thread do a
> good job explaining why this makes sense to him. He gets this
> information at a point where circumstances have served to distance him
> from everyone else, so he gets cold and methodical while pursuing a
> few avenues to try to prove it wrong, thinks about where his loyalties
> lie once it seems to be not only true but imminent. ...
I'm guessing that the imminence of it is a primary effect of the faked up
parts of the prophecy. The references to running out of time. The Loa's
insistence that "when" is what Wesley needs to know. Sahjhan's ploy with
Connor's blood. It all seems designed to push for a premature action.
That
pressure upon Wesley is surely part of what's been going on.
I just spoke of how the prophecy perversely fits Wesley's sense of logic,
but let me add something about his experience with prophecies. One of his
greater humiliations was the mistranslation of Shanshu. One might expect
that to be a lesson to him about believing prophecies. But I don't think
so. I don't believe his take away from that was that you can't trust
prophecies. Instead, it was that he needed to do a better job of
translating. From his point of view there wasn't anything wrong with the
prophecy. (I suspect he still doesn't grasp Shashu's natural ambiguity.)
Wesley is a book man first. (And a big motivation for his prophecy
research
now is as refuge from his feelings for Fred. He needs to believe in his
power of research more than ever.) All of his life and training is built
upon the notion of revealing the world through study and analysis.
Deciphering the hidden truths of a prophecy is practically the definition
of
his self perceived role in life. His vanity is that he is uniquely
qualified to recognize that truth. As such he may be the most vulnerable
to
a prophecy's deceit. Especially now when he's so much in need of
validation.
> all the while
> not quite sure he's doing the right thing, as we see the difference
> between his speeches and his misgivings when visiting Holtz. My
> original favorite scene (although, really, almost every scene is a
> favorite) was the opening, with the torrent of admittedly fake looking
> blood.
That's a good scene that blandly states the loyalty theme of the title in
the first sentence. (The loyalty theme probably deserves more discussion,
but I've hit enough already.) I guess I like the blood on Wesley's hands
the most. Does Wesley perceive that blood as representing the consequence
of his action or inaction? He probably doesn't know, but boy does it
drive
home how he sees the responsibility resting with him.
> Now I like the closing beat even better, which echoes it in
> how suddenly Wesley's world comes apart. He's been reassured by
> Angel's basic decency not to take his portents too seriously. Then,
> in quick unambiguous succession earthquake, fire, blood, big and
> impressive (the first two, anyway), Angel joking about snacking on his
> son, and that last shot of Wes's face. I've rarely been more anxious
> to know where we go from here. "Loyalty" may be my favorite
> individual non-Faith episode of the series.
> Rating: Excellent
I'm happy to rate it Excellent too, though I'm a little surprised to see
you
placing it that high in the full series run. It's a pretty powerful
episode, but not quite gasp inducing. I think of AtS as a gasp inducing
series.
There's another diner scene between Fred and Gunn this episode. For some
reason I find myself focusing on the food in those scenes. That's a
beautiful stack of medium sized pancakes on Gunn's plate. So... perfect.
> Additional comments on S3D4: Now that we're through the series, any
> new thoughts on the prophecy? There's a lot of effort made to make
> everyone believe it's legitimate, and then it becomes the one prophecy
> in the Buffyverse treated as completely manufactured, created as a way
> of avoiding a true prophecy. Then after all that, Angel does kill
> Connor (well, one version) to close the S3/4 period.
I don't remember the details anymore, but my understanding was that there
really was a prophecy threatening Sahjhan, and that he twisted it in an
effort to protect himself. But it's not all fabrication. What exactly is
fabricated, and especially what exactly the true prophecy is can't be
determined, though one is free to infer anything from future events. All
of
S4 might be the fruition of that prophecy. (Which would imply that
Sahjhan's part in it was actually rather small, though it wouldn't seem
small to him.)
Anyway, the net effect would be a pretty open ended prophecy that could be
used any way the writers wanted to. I like prophecy stories myself, and
do
appreciate some the allusions to it in S4, but it really feels more like
continuity porn than a story driver next season, ultimately speaking to
the
way that season jerks the viewer around by making so much of the season's
struggles seem pointless.
> I've noticed that quite a few fans of the series have a moment at
> which the character of Cordelia no longer had any interest for them.
> (Compared to the situation for me, this is a bigger change, since many
> of them had always been fans of the cartoonish version from _Buffy_.)
Heh. Well my favorite Cordy probably is the end of BtVS S1 through early
S3. It's scanter than I would prefer, but I think it's an interesting
story
that opened a lot of potential that was unfortunately cut off in the
transition to AtS. But I like AtS Cordy too. My biggest criticism would
be
a fairly mild sense that it was too big a part for a so-so actress.
Still,
her toothy smile and acting as Angel's scold are some of the more enduring
and lovable impressions of the series. It would surely be a very
different
series without her.
> For me, it's the end of "Waiting In The Wings." From that moment on,
> Cordy is essentially dead to me, and I don't care about her at all
> with the exception of a few scenes from "You're Welcome" (not the
> whole episode, either). I'm thinking now that the mishandling of the
> Angel/Cordelia romance angle may have done more damage than I gave it
> credit for. Once Cordy turns into an object of desire for the main
> character, the skewed emphasis means that she's important to the
> series primarily for whom she's in love with.
That seems an overblown reaction to me. The biggest problem with the
romance is that it only barely happens. Meanwhile, Cordy becomes
important
for other reasons. And Cordy has been deeply important to Angel for a
long
time now. Actually, the thing I like best about the attempts at romance
is
that it seems that Angel's feelings about her have built naturally out of
their intimate friendship and shared experiences. He truly appreciates
her
in a way the gothic romance of it all impeded his relationship with Buffy.
I think the romance is pretty solidly conceived. The problems with
Cordy's
character are, IMO, where they take her instead of the romance.
> Some characters can't
> survive that. The alternative viewpoint would place the problems with
> the attempt to take her on a journey from selfishness to selflessness,
> since the latter is always so much less interesting. However, I was
> engaged in many of the late-S2/early S3 sequences, including
> "Birthday;" I don't think that trying to serve a higher purpose
> necessarily means that someone has to lose their sense of humor or not
> be a bit of a hypocrite in an interesting way.
I don't even mind it in late S3. (Too much Groo is a greater problem for
me.) I don't think there's actually all that much of the quality, which
is
mitigated by the mystery of what in the heck is going on with Cordy's
mystical powers. Cordy's ascension could be its most cloying moment,
except
that it's made very bitter sweet through the abrupt cutoff of the romance.
(The two together mitigate each other I think.)
It's not great, and largely driven by the impending ascension that's not a
story winner for me. But I don't mind it so much for it's relatively
brief
duration. The biggest loss is simply the lack of Cordelia the scold. But
where all of this really becomes a problem is in S4, which I attribute to
the Jasmine story, CC's pregnancy, and the unfortunate failure to bring
true
Cordy back until that brief over praised moment late in S5. I don't see
either the romance or the selflessness having much responsibility for
that.
> Despite the way ATS
> struggled to find a place for the character (and if you think back,
> you'll see that there's more struggling than is immediately apparent),
> the demonization, etc. feels to me very much like a natural extension
> of what started when she re-met Angel and kicked into high gear when
> she picked up the visions. It's only looking back that I'm more
> inclined to make comments like "if you take away her edge, what's the
> point of the arc?" So, where did it go wrong for you?
The start of S4, though I'm not sure I grasped it that quickly. Wrong is
relative. I don't like much of S4 Cordelia - and Cordy/Connor is really
creepy. But one thing the Jasmine arc does is provide an excuse for her
behavior. I still retained a longing for true Cordelia to rise from the
ashes. The biggest failure of S4 for her character is that never
occurred.
OBS
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