"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsmtsm@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
news:2d5a4556-ebca-444c-b445-52c0d2f4fa65@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> On Jan 21, 1:12 am, "One Bit Shy" <O...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in
>>
messagenews:90551d14-8190-4ae9-a582-1d25cf63a161@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>
>>
>>
>> > On Jan 18, 12:20 pm, "One Bit Shy" <O...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>> >> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in
>> >>
messagenews:62008914-f17c-447f-b156-ea064e82ebc2@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>
>> >> > I was just musing out loud, really, about when things are worse
for
>> >> > her. On the one hand, OMWF is a low point. That's when she wants
>> >> > to
>> >> > die; after that, progressively less so. But then "Dead Things"
>> >> > feels
>> >> > like a sort of rock bottom too. Does being more alive make Spike
>> >> > more
>> >> > of a threat? Is the level that she cares about the perceived
>> >> > identity
>> >> > threat ultimately a sign of recovery? That kind of thing.
>>
>> >> I think of As You Were as her low point with Spike - when it's
gotten
>> >> really
>> >> empty, but, like a run down addict, she can't stop going to him. I
>> >> think
>> >> of
>> >> Dead Things a little differently. It might even be better to
describe
>> >> that
>> >> as her high point with Spike - when for a moment she thinks that
maybe
>> >> she
>> >> really can lose herself in Spike.
>>
>> > Now we're just talking about degrees and semantics, but to me there's
>> > certainly nothing in AYW - either its depiction of degradation or of
>> > progress - that even comes close to the anguish Buffy shows us when
>> > pounding on Spike in DT.
>>
>> Or her weeping in Tara's arms begging her not to forgive her. (Does
that
>> remind you a little of 5X5 Faith? There's a sisterhood between them
even
>> if
>> they don't really like each other.) I believe I understand you. I'm
>> just
>> framing peaks and valleys differently. (I think there are multiple
peaks
>> and valleys in the S6 story. Or at least valleys.) Believe me, I do
>> consider DT as pivotal for Buffy's recovery and her relation****p with
>> Spike
>> both. (DT has both a high and a low for the Spike relation****p.) It's
>> just
>> that post-DT, when the luster (for lack of a better word) is gone from
>> Spike
>> and her excuse (coming back wrong) is stripped away, she still keeps
>> going
>> back to Spike for what I consider to be the truly pathetic stage of
their
>> relation****p. That's a different valley than DT - and a passionless
>> one -
>> but not upward movement until Riley knocks some sense into her.
>
> That sort of frames the problem I'm having with this phase of the arc
> as a whole (that kinda gets focused onto AYW, which ends up
> responsible for ending it). The relation****p is pathetic both before
> and after "Dead Things," with little difference in depiction. I feel
> like it ought to change things, somehow (well, it does eventually, but
> not before a few episodes of almost guaranteed anticlimax). One of
> the multiple reasons DT is such a great episode is for the way it
> captures both the degree to which Spike is in fact getting into her
> (insert crude joke here) and the intensity to which she's repulsed by
> her situation. Beyond that (and "Gone," which has its own agenda),
> it's all degrading and passionless. The lack of luster is part of the
> story from the beginning, in fact - there's a reason for the chosen
> location for the *** scene in "Doublemeat Palace," for example. (I'm
> sure some will argue for passion in her "trying to feel something"
> ***ual aggressiveness in "Tabula Rasa" and "Smashed," but then, she
> does that in AYW too.) So although we all seem to see what "As You
> Were" is on paper supposed to accomplish for the series, I'm not
> convinced it really does.
I have thoughts on all that, but not terribly organized. Let me nibble at
some edges.
Pulling Buffy's life back together isn't synonymous with getting over
Spike - even when steps are made through the Spike connection.
Reaffirming
her principles from Ted and Consequences is more about reconnecting to her
life than it is about Spike. It does say something about Spike too as his
soulless limitations are demonstrated and Buffy's sense that he represents
everything she's supposed to be against comes into especially sharp focus.
But that's not the totality of Spike. When Spike mouths Faith's words
about
the balance of lives saved being in her favor, it's really easy to see
what
a shock that would be to Buffy. But Spike isn't Faith. Even as he
demonstrates his inability to get humanity, he also demonstrates his
devotion to Buffy. It's clear his motivation is to protect her in DT.
And
as Buffy beats the crap out of him in her disgust, he accepts it and even
turns from vamp to human face - exactly the opposite of what a vampire
normally does, which kind of belies what she's accusing him of. (Besides,
her rage and disgust is more at herself than at Spike.) It's confusing.
And that confusion is shown in DT too when Buffy breaks down with Tara,
asking why she keeps going to Spike even though she knows he's bad.
There are a whole bunch of complications surrounding Spike and Buffy's
development not covered by DT - or just hinted at. Seeing the evil
bloodsucking fiend doesn't resolve all the ways he's been there for Buffy
-
pre-dating the first kiss. There are a ton of little things that have
gone
on that aren't degrading at all. The degrading aspect does indeed
demonstrate that Spike can't be what he or she imagined he might be. But
Buffy has really always demonstrated an awareness of that, even if she
pushes it into the background periodically. So he's not everything. He's
still something. I think that goes to the whole mystery of Spike caught
in
a neverland between vampire and human.
I think DT is where the issue of trust is overtly raised. But not
settled.
That's something addressed more strongly in AYW, and then brought into the
harsh light in Seeing Red. (As much as any single element can be the
heart
of this, I think the issue of trust is the one ultimately settled on.)
Stepping a little further back, much of what Buffy is doing this season is
resolving leftover issues from S5. Like letting go of Joyce and letting
Dawn loose from merely being an object to be protected. One big one that
catches everybody by surprise - not least Buffy herself - is finally
moving
past Riley. Dealing with her both her guilt and her yearnings. I believe
that AYW reveals how much Spike was standing in for Riley (which also adds
oomph to the notion of using Spike) and how much Buffy was trapped by her
neediness for that kind of devotion. Much has been spoken of how Spike
has
looked to Buffy as a role model. Doesn't it also make sense that he would
look to Riley as a role model (subconsciously anyway) too?
There are probably some Angel components too, which I'll leave to your
imagination.
Buffy has also been letting Spike get away with stuff for years now. Long
before this affair she's tolerated and even allied with Spike in spite of
all the crap he pulls off. Channeling Burt for a minute, how can she be a
decent Slayer that way? Even when he's acting good, he's still stealing
from the Magic Box basement and who knows what else. That's something
else
that AYW brings into focus and ties into the trust angle.
And then there's the reality that some of this connection isn't going to
be
understood by anyone. Not this year anyway. Part is probably just
because
of who they are - a natural connection demonstrated all the way back in
Becoming. Some of it is meant to bubble up in S7 I believe. The hint of
possibilities within Spike this year recognized by Buffy then, and
understood by her to be true then when nobody else is able or willing to
see
it. S6 rolls into S7 in a number of ways. Part of it is, of course,
laying
the groundwork for Spike's redemption. I think another part is laying the
groundwork for Buffy to accept redemption.
Anyway, as far as going ahead with the degradation even when she's aware
and
disgusted by it, I think there's unfinished business. Her self abuse over
Riley is a big one. And just generally she doesn't believe she's worth
better yet. Riley will help with both counts. Riley aside, I don't think
she's really getting how much Spike being there for her matters and how
much
it still feels like Spike really is all there is. And things she may
never
get about her attraction to him, but will get past as she gets stronger in
other ways.
Probably not entirely satisfying, but the season piles all sorts of things
onto Buffy that all have to get filtered through the Spike story too.
It's
quite a mess she's wading through. It's not over with AYW either. (Her
jealousy in Entropy for example.) It's not really settled until Seeing
Red.
The last influence I'll mention that I think is there is gratitude. Spike
saved her life in OMWF and was the pathway to living again. I don't think
that Buffy consciously recognizes that in S6, though she gets it some in
S7
with a little reinforcement. Still it ought to be something that helps
draw
her to him.
OBS
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