"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsmtsm@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
news:1118ffb9-3209-4ab4-a060-2c7414ebc414@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> ANGEL
> Season Three, Episode 16: "Sleep Tight"
> I think to enjoy this one the viewer has to appreciate watching an
> avoidable tragedy unfold. The march towards a known outcome actually
> made me appreciate things more the second. There are several points
> at which the show gives things a chance to go slightly differently -
> Wesley leaving in time to miss the explanation for Angel's odd
> behavior, the others getting home just late enough to not find Lorne
> for awhile, the chance that Angel will figure out what's happening,
> the chance that Wes will reconsider (many times), up until the chaos
> of the four-way standoff at the end. One also has to enjoy nasty
> people being vicious to each other, since "Sleep Tight" is about
> spotlighting four of the show's villains in their element, and two of
> the heroes trying to match them for darkness. Fortunately, I enjoy
> both of these things.
Justine: I imagine it's easier to hate Holtz than yourself.
Wes: There's enough to go around for both him and me.
When Wes asks Holtz how much time is left I was feeling the time
constraints
of two episodes more than the dramatic deadline spoken of. It's not so
much
the elapsed time that bothers me, but a seemingly inadequate amount of
support for the degree to which he seems to cave to Holtz's pressure and
the
less than clear notion that Holtz's deadline must correspond to that of
the
prophecy. The logic shown seems a little thin.
That's about the only substantial criticism I have of the episode. And
when
you get lines like quoted above and the drama of a kidnapped baby, a
slashed
throat, and an escape to hell... well, it doesn't matter much. A little
fan
wanking can find a way to fill in any logic gaps without too much effort.
The emotional edge to this episode strikes very deep with no gaps that I
perceive.
Plus, props for the really clever blood gambit. Now that's a devious plan
truly worthy of an AtS big bad. Sahjhan often seems small time, but then
he
pulls stuff like this off and shows himself to be one of the more
ingenious
foes of the series.
> This is one of those times when I think it's
> self-explanatory to call it more great stuff from a show at its
> peak.
It really doesn't require much comment does it? This is the gasp inducing
type of episode that I think of as AtS at its best. And my favorite of
this
little group.
> Rating: Excellent (up from Good)
Definitely an Excellent for me.
When I first watched this episode I was nagged for the longest time
wondering how much was actually planned by Holtz and when exactly Justine
was faking it or being real. But that's part of the beauty of this story
of
plotting and betrayal. You don't know what's real. Props again to the
episode for leaving some doubts even at the end.
> Season Three, Episode 17: "Forgiving"
> Writer: Jeffrey Bell
> Director: Turi Meyer
>
> This is the other way around, a situation in which although I know I
> love this episode, I spent the re-watching trying to recapture the
> initial euphoria in the face of the little things that were bothering
> me. I dunno, bits of awkwardness like the way the White Room stuff
> seems to happen so fast, or how Sahjhan's destructive power is hyped
> up and ends up mostly involving gently tossing people.
In Loyalty you spoke of how much the episode was about the setup. (Not
that
you minded.) The observation still strikes me a little odd because, to
me,
it doesn't play like setup beyond the natural fact that first things come
first. This episode, on the other hand, reeks of post mortem. One big
explanation. So big that it actually negates some of the premises of the
setup.
And it seems kind of self conscious about it too. Everybody scurrying
around to figure out what happened and tidying up the loose ends. Which I
see as the source of some awkwardness.
But again, as with criticisms of the past two episodes, it really doesn't
matter. The explanations and loose ends are presented in high drama with
stunning content. I'm reminded that one reason bad guys tend to hang
around
too long in order to crow about how devious they are, is because sometimes
they really have something to crow about. Altering the prophecy like
that.... brutal!
> Still, it's an
> interesting look at what Angel can be pushed to in his moments of
> focused rage - as was pointed out, he's got the same methodical
> ruthlessness as he does as Angelus, but the violence is never casual
> or fun for him. And unlike in S2, the motivation and the anger are
> always over something pretty universal, so it's never hard for the
> viewer to understand how he could be driven to this point. Meanwhile...
> well, everything's happening meanwhile. Like the best hours of the
> series, "Forgiving" feels like everything's happening at once,
> incorporating Angel, Wesley, W&H and its higher connections, Sahjhan,
> Justine and those Holtz left behind, and so on into a sort of
> conglomeration of stuff that all fits together. Even if one can't
> recapture the original surprise, realizing how and why the prophecy
> came to be is a great idea, as is Angel trying to kill Wesley at the
> end (that kinda blew my brother's mind, and he'd shrugged off most of
> Angel's dark moments in S2).
I think it's a little over the top myself. Another instance of the
episode
self consciously constructing itself. But I don't mind. AtS is not a
subtle series in the way it dramatizes things. It also ties back to the
ferocity shown in the way Angel attacked the garage band last episode. I
actually wish there was more of that ferocity in the series. (Possibly
with
Spike too.)
> I'm still hopelessly in love with the
> idea of this episode, too much so to have many serious complaints.
> Rating: Excellent
Another Excellent for me too, though probably the lowest of the three.
When I first saw Wesley lying in the park with his eyes opened I really
thought he might be dead. Very manipulative of the episode, but OK
because
I kind of want to be manipulated that way in this instance.
I love the little girl in the White Room. Way better than the panther.
> Season Three, Episode 18: "Double Or Nothing"
> Okay, so is there any purpose to the confusing and silly use of the
> word "soul" in this episode other than the rather lame misdirect of
> briefly thinking that Angel rather than Gunn is being targeted? Gunn
> didn't sell his "soul" by any Buffyverse definition of the term, which
> has a very specific non-figurative meaning in other episodes. It
> seems to me that if you universally substitute the word "future," the
> whole thing makes more sense. (Selling one's future is, of course,
> apparently not the same thing as losing one's "destiny" as portrayed
> in "The House Always Sucks.")
That's funny, 'cause I thought the confusion was over the use of the word
"future" just so they could draw a parallel between Gunn and Angel. When
Jenoff described his contract with Gunn as mortgaging his "future", I was
sure that the ambiguous and misleading term would end up being some kind
of
loophole setting Gunn free. But no, they ended up playing the contract
straight.
I think they just wanted to get the audience thinking about the idea of a
future. Which is mostly OK. One of the best things in the episode is the
parallel of both Gunn and Angel having found a future they never believed
they could have, and then having it stolen from them. Gunn's version is a
bit ridiculous, but it does its job of emphasizing the more important
Angel
perspective. Still, it would be nice if "soul" and "future" weren't
treated
as equivalent.
Setting aside the word confusion, I don't think the soul concept (mostly)
is
that far from Buffyverse general usage. It (mostly) wasn't figurative.
Jenoff was a soul sucker. We're even shown an example of him sucking
away.
We were shown something similar in BtVS's Living Conditions - just less
fatal. And, of course, W&H employees routinely sell their souls through
blood contracts.
Where I think it gets mucky is equating Gunn's commitment to Fred with
giving her his soul. Now that pushes the concept over the edge IMO, and
should be withdrawn from canon.
> Otherwise, DON is an okay Gunn episode
> that makes another of the show's periodic attempts to wring a unifying
> thread out of the way(s) the character has been written, perhaps
> wisely choosing to play *up* the contrast between who he was and the
> S3 version.
Maybe. But I think it works better than most such efforts because it's
over
the top silly (I love the two gangsterish demon bad guys) and pays off
with
a good joke about the truck. I don't feel like the show is obligating me
to
take it so SERIOUS.
> The series needs a down moment between what's come before
> and what comes after, and it helps that it's full of tidbits including
> the message-delivering guy, Groo being helpful, Angel being oblivious...
> and on a more weighty note, Fred going from pushing Wesley away to
> recognizing something similar happening to her. {From Chris in the
> original thread: "Amy kept the paper crown on longer than most actors
> could get away with."} Even if that whole "plot" thing kinda falls
> apart towards the end as most of the casino scenes don't really work,
> there are enough bits ingrained in the less successful scenes to make
> it work. We've discussed other episodes where the fringes make up for
> the deficiencies in the big stuff, but "Double Or Nothing" is an
> unusual sub-category in that the nice little moments are inseparable
> from the A-story scenes that contain them.
There sure are a lot of things propping up this episode. I laugh and
laugh
at Syd and Monica Frzylcka and their squatter Skench demon with all its
shrieking and projectile phlegm. And, of course, "Pancake kiss!" Yummy!
Actually, I think the A-story itself exists mainly to prop up the
background
of Angel finding a way to move on. Which I think the episode does a
pretty
good job of. It avoids too much wallowing, while not making it too easy
either. And with the unresolved issue of Wesley in the background, you
know
it's not really over. (Actually, what I like best about it is that the
resolution is smashed to bits in the very next episode. The way Connor is
used to play with people's emotions works well this season. Too bad that
they decided to extend the run.)
> The last shot of Angel is
> seriously one of the saddest moments of the series for me.
YMV
> Rating: Decent
I kind of hated this episode first time. Gunn selling his soul to some
casino demon crime lord was too much of a stretch for me. It worked way
better the next time when I didn't take the concept so seriously. Now I
think it works rather well to bring out Angel's more serious story and
allow
it to move so quickly. (The heavy duty mourning really should last longer
in real time. But is still only worth one episode.) I'll rate it Decent
too, but a pretty high and entertaining Decent.
> Season Three, Episode 19: "The Price"
> I questioned why exactly I enjoyed "The Price" so much the first time
> around.
I like the episode and rate it Good as you do. But first time through
this
was easily my least liked episode of the season. Even more than TOGOM.
It's hard now to remember exactly why other than generally feeling
repulsed.
Maybe it was the creepy little creatures giving me nightmares. Or maybe I
got overdosed on Cordelia's hair. I'm not sure. But I think it goes to
show you just never know. I watched S3 originally in about a week of
concentrated DVD viewing. A veritable AtS orgy. (I was trying to get it
done fast because I knew that the then upcoming BtVS S6 discussions would
be
consuming.) When I was done my head was kind of spinning. WTF? So I
turned around and watched it a second time right away to see if I could
get
what I just saw. This episode probably changed the most to my eyes second
time. Almost like I hadn't really seen it first time.
> I think it's because it knows what kind of show it is, and
> delivers on what it promises. Throw some moderately inventive "sluk"
> monsters in with the heroes and hit record. (Also, throw in Lilah and
> Gavin contributing some pure entertainment that has no effect
> whatsoever on the play of the Hyperion scenes, in the most obvious
> example in the series of scenes being added when an episode was
> running a few minutes short.) In one sense it's just a haunted house
> story, and could almost stand alone as a solidly entertaining example
> of the form. Yet it also manages to weave in Angel's responsibility
> for his past actions, and how he'll react to another member of the
> team faced with a similar choice. Not to mention the speaking debut
> of Wes v.2.0. The episode's coda gives us another debut, that of one
> of my favorite Buffyverse actors, Vincent Kartheiser as Connor.
> Minority opinion, perhaps, but he's the last fundamental piece of
> ATS's greatness for me. Amy Acker gets to practice her rapid voice-
> shifting, a skill that, unbeknownst to her, the series will use to
> great effect in its twilight hours.
> Rating: Good
One of the things I love in this episode is that after Angel suffers all
the
recriminations for resorting to dark magic to get what he wants - after
all
the penalties - after repeated emphasis on its futility - the spell turned
out to have been the means for Connor's return.
I gather that some people like the continuity of referencing
"thaumogenesis"
this episode. I'd also like to point out that this is yet another
dimensional portal opened by blood. I count at least 4 - Acathla, Dawn's
mega-portal, this one, and BtVS's S7 hellmouth gate. It's also at least
the
third version of hell where time moves faster. (Acathla and Anne's hell
being the others.) Buffy's heaven seemed to her to have faster time too.
The Buffyverse may not have retained continuity as rigidly as some would
like, but it did try.
What Cordy does this episode is the main reason I think Jasmine must
already
be in her rather than waiting on her ascension.
Angel: Doesn't ever snow in Southern California.
Cordelia: Did, once.
I'm not sure why that offhand reference to Amends gets me. I don't really
get a great significance to it. But something about the moment and
delivery
makes me shiver. It's one of my favorite moments in the episode.
I'm not sure how obvious it is, so pardon me for stating the obvious if it
is - but part of the point (if not most) of emphasizing how Angel felt
that
he was doing what he had to do when he performed the spell, even though it
hurts those around him, is to make sure that the parallel between he and
Wesley is recognized as complete. Wesley is very much the echo of Angel.
He has learned at the feet of the master of brooding and unilateral
action.
And this whole run going back to WITW has been constructed as a parallel
sharing Connor as object. One of the most aching moments of the episode
is
Wesley croaking, "I needed to live to see my friends again. To explain to
the people I trusted... and loved... my side of what happened." Implicit
in
that is the complaint of Angel getting a kind of free ride when it comes
to
betraying the trust of his comrades.
As bitter a pill as that is for Wesley, I wonder if it's worse learning
that
the prophecy was a fraud. (Remember how Angel felt at the end of Reprise?
How did Angel deal with that? How is Wesley going to deal with it? The
parallel is really extensive and extending years.)
Anyway, this is a really Good episode, though it is kind of ucky too, what
with those creatures climbing into people's mouths and the cracked faces
and
so on.
> Additional comments on S3D5: I really did think that Justine could be
> redeemed after her self-assessment and her help in beating Sahjhan. I
> kinda still want to. Season Three is very good at suckering the
> viewer (or me, anyway) with the same things over and over.
Justine is in love with a very bad man. Sometimes alone she knows that
and
can be sort of decent. But she'll still do anything for him. Anything.
> Okay, now that I don't care as much about the damage that his presence
> does to Cordelia - she's already dead to me, remember, especially now
> with my least favorite hair - I can see why some people like the
> Groosalugg so much in S3. He's so well-meaning and earnest that he
> can make most dialogue sound funny. Yet he can also sell pain,
> because... okay, his disposition gets compared pretty often to that of a
> puppy. Well, it's hard not to feel bad seeing a puppy sulking,
> however jaded and resistant to emotional manipulation one claims to
> be. I still think having him and Lorne around together is a bit much
> as far as cast bloat, since they're both primarily guys who exist to
> say something funny to defuse potential melodrama.
The way they're using Groo is exactly right for the point that they're
after, which is perfectly valid. That's why I don't mind his appearance
in
WITW when all he does is show up. I even think he's hysterical in DON as
he
tries to follow through his bewilderment the gang's rapid fire discussion
about finding Gunn. But the guy is still an over the top cartoon, when
such
a caricature isn't really required, who always gets tiresome really fast.
I
much preferred him in Pylea where the whole place is a cartoon. I know
that
fish out of water is a rich source of drama and comedy both. But I'm
sorry,
he feels more like dead weight to me. His is the long running part of
this
season that I really don't like.
OBS
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