"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsmtsm@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
news:b5bb9a0f-abc7-425d-a355-d656afc6b268@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> On Jan 27, 1:53 pm, "One Bit Shy" <O...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in
>>
messagenews:1118ffb9-3209-4ab4-a060-2c7414ebc414@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> In Loyalty you spoke of how much the episode was about the setup. (Not
>> that
>> you minded.) The observation still strikes me a little odd because, to
>> me,
>> it doesn't play like setup beyond the natural fact that first things
come
>> first. This episode, on the other hand, reeks of post mortem. One big
>> explanation. So big that it actually negates some of the premises of
the
>> setup.
>>
>> And it seems kind of self conscious about it too. Everybody scurrying
>> around to figure out what happened and tidying up the loose ends.
Which
>> I
>> see as the source of some awkwardness.
>
> "Forgiving" is certainly a post mortem, but like "Loyalty," it plays
> like high drama in and of itself that I don't mind at all (plus, when
> revelations actually do surprise you while explaining the long brewing
> mysteries, it's a joy to watch). Although "Sleep Tight" may be the
> climax, this phase of the story can't end until we've made an effort
> to get Connor back and closed the door on it (for a few weeks), dealt
> with Sahjhan as his own Big Bad, said goodbye to Holtz's followers,
> let us know what happened to Wesley, how Angel is affected by the
> whole thing, etc. That's precisely what I love about it; after you've
> had your central episode, not every show can wrap up the old,
> transition to the next thing, and be so thrilling about it. Or as I
> originally put it, ""Forgiving" feels like an exciting climax, an
> ending of sorts, and sets up a new batch of continuing stories. Neat
> trick, that." (I know you're more mixed on it, but "Inside Out" gets
> the same kind of love from me.)
Ah, good comparison. The revelations of Forgiving target like a laser.
Inside Out, on the other hand, negates everything we know
indiscriminately,
leaving us reluctant to believe anything past or future again. That's why
I
rate Forgiving Excellent and Inside Out Decent.
> ["Double Or Nothing"]
>> Maybe. But I think it works better than most such efforts because it's
>> over
>> the top silly (I love the two gangsterish demon bad guys) and pays off
>> with
>> a good joke about the truck. I don't feel like the show is obligating
me
>> to
>> take it so SERIOUS.
>
> Funny, because it's never occurred to me to really take it that way.
> The tropes are certainly goofy, and I'd also add that the show's
> having some fun intentionally making the flashback feel "dated"
> through the use of "Gangsta's Paradise," a song that's inexorably
> linked to a certain time. But the tropes are often silly in the
> Buffyverse, while the stuff with the people we care about is played
> more seriously - surely we're at least theoretically supposed to care
> about the Gunn/Fred sequences? The casino stuff is a mechanism to say
> something about what Gunn's new life, Fred in particular, means to
> him. DON is lighter than the arc-intensive stuff that precedes and
> follows it, and it's a lot more fun (to me) than S4's similarly
> situated "Players," but I've never thought of it as particularly
> "silly" overall.
It's just the casino story that I think is silly. Angel moving on isn't
silly - though the casino story does keep that from being oppressive. The
effect on the Fred/Gunn relation****p isn't silly - though some of it is
funny. The discussion elsewhere in the thread about the implications of
Fred's reaction to Gunn's rejection illustrates some of the depth to that
peculiar scene with crown wearing Fred. And the whole concept of
discovering a future that you didn't think you had, only to have it stolen
away, is pretty good. Oh, wait a minute. Syd and Monica are silly too -
even though they also speak to the notion of having a future.
>> I'm not sure how obvious it is, so pardon me for stating the obvious if
>> it
>> is - but part of the point (if not most) of emphasizing how Angel felt
>> that
>> he was doing what he had to do when he performed the spell, even though
>> it
>> hurts those around him, is to make sure that the parallel between he
and
>> Wesley is recognized as complete. Wesley is very much the echo of
Angel.
>> He has learned at the feet of the master of brooding and unilateral
>> action.
>> And this whole run going back to WITW has been constructed as a
parallel
>> sharing Connor as object. One of the most aching moments of the
episode
>> is
>> Wesley croaking, "I needed to live to see my friends again. To explain
to
>> the people I trusted... and loved... my side of what happened."
Implicit
>> in
>> that is the complaint of Angel getting a kind of free ride when it
comes
>> to
>> betraying the trust of his comrades.
>
> I don't really think on that level while watching, so even if it's
> obvious to some, it's interesting to read.
Most of my analysis is retrospective involving re-watching and input from
others. However, one thing I do actually look for while watching
Buffyverse
episodes is immediate character parallels. I think it's just about the
most
common writing device in these series. I've never tried to catalog this,
but I'd guess that a majority of the episodes rely on parallels -
sometimes
multiple parallels.
Actually, in an im****tant sense, the original BtVS concept of metaphor
demons come to life commonly creates a parallel story. Maybe that
explains
the subtle ****ft away from as many overt metaphors in later seasons.
Perhaps they're relying more on ongoing character parallels.
> [The Groosalug]
>> But the guy is still an over the top cartoon, when such
>> a caricature isn't really required, who always gets tiresome really
fast.
>> I
>> much preferred him in Pylea where the whole place is a cartoon.
>
> I could say the same things about Lorne. I probably have.
Heh. Well, we've beat that one into the ground already. I'll say that I
80% agree with you. It's just that Groo never gets an episode like Spin
the
Bottle, nor a conclusion like Lorne's part in Not Fade Away. Nor can I
imagine him pulling off such a thing.
OBS
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