On Mar 13, 11:02 pm, "One Bit Shy" <O...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in
messagenews:02933298-4e93-4efc-86a0-14fee8708547@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
>
> > On Mar 11, 4:04 pm, "One Bit Shy" <O...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
> >> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in
> >>
messagenews:2fced64b-7c5d-45b3-9e3c-1ee9f72eff83@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >> I have a fundamental problem with considering the slow release of
> >> information to Cordy about everything that they are as deceitful. It
> >> would
> >> have been no less misleading for Angel to announce that he's a
vampire
> >> right
> >> off and put on his game face, for example. There's a lifetime of
> >> foundation
> >> to who Cordelia had become, and it doesn't come clear in an instant
no
> >> matter what order it's imparted in. I can understand somebody
reacting
> >> poorly to that - as Cordelia does - but I get really annoyed at the
> >> implicit
> >> suggest (seemingly bought into by the characters) that they screwed
up
> >> and
> >> lied to her.
>
> >> This is more than unwieldy for me. It feels forced. The start of
> >> slamming
> >> situations into place by gum, and too clever by half.
>
> > That's not how I read the sequence. The whole point of it is that
> > Angel and his company are at a disadvantage by the way things happen.
> > They can't tell Cordelia the whole truth right away - they're pretty
> > much required to hide something - but someone like Cordy will then
> > interpret this as lying to her. Especially since, as his been
> > previously established, they really suck at hiding things and tend to
> > come off as, well, untrustworthy to an observer. I don't tend to use
> > "too clever" as a criticism because I generally like things that I
> > think are clever. This is a reasonable and unforced way, in my
> > opinion, for Connor and Cordelia to be spending time together while
> > Angel suffers the indignity of losing someone to his own son (and
> > that's a really strong emotional moment), without him really having
> > done anything wrong. I don't want to think it's because of some evil
> > master plan either, just the way the chips fall to get in the way of
> > things turning out right.
>
> Maybe. It doesn't feel that way to me. And in Supersymmetry it
continues
> to be described as lying to protect Cordy, with Angel seeming to accept
that
> framing.
But when characters' take on something *you* like doesn't fit the
situation, it's an in-character misreading. I see how it is.
> The show hangs a lot off of this premise, which I think is shaky.
> Even Cordelia should be able to figure out eventually that the truth is
> complicated and takes a lot of explaining - that it doesn't have to just
be
> about protecting her delicate sensibilities. That's what I mean by it
being
> too clever by half. They're staking too much on a clever situation
while
> side stepping the greater weight of the natural cir***stance. The
missing
> line that the episode would never be able to withstand is nothing more
than,
> "Gee, Cordy, there's so much to explain, I don't know where to start."
But
> they never even try to go there, which I can only explain by their
evident
> acceptance of the notion they were actively deceiving her.
They've decided, right or wrong, that any mention of the supernatural,
including even the suggestion that there's something they're holding
back, would be too much for her to believe right away. "There's a lot
to explain, but I'm going to stop here for now" doesn't sound like a
winning strategy either. Let me repeat that it works for me because
it makes sense that Cordelia would get angry at any attempt to keep
things from her, and would interpret any secret-keeping as deception.
> >> So, how much into Wesley do you suppose Lilah is? These last couple
of
> >> episodes are where it really feels like she's falling for him. Even
if
> >> she
> >> can't help still being Lilah.
>
> > Hard to say. I was looking at it from the other side while watching.
> > Wesley's behavior in DD suggests that he's his own man, but continuing
> > to their bet here, he's clearly feeling something for her. The
> > dynamic between them is supposed to defy easy description, but in the
> > end, the tragedy of their relation****p for both of them was neither
> > was able to "save" the other from being themself. There's a concious
> > symmetry to the Wesley/Lilah interactions (to go along with Wes being
> > a reflection of Angel, as usual), yet I don't think it ever feels like
> > something that was shoehorned in to Lilah's character.
>
> That's interesting. I hadn't actually gotten to the point of thinking
of
> them as trying to save each other. (Boy, you're getting really
analytical
> in your recent reviews. I think you've been seduced to the dark side.)
At
> least not Lilah saving Wesley. But, of course, from Lilah's point of
view
> she kind of was. I can see how it would start for her as taking
advantage
> of op****tunity to maybe recruit him to W&H and certainly to use him.
And
> then sort of drift into actually trying to rescue him. It wouldn't look
all
> that different, since her idea of saving him would be a form of using
him.
> Thinking of it that way I'm actually more inclined now to view it as a
kind
> of falling in love - as much as Lilah can anyway. And certainly in the
only
> way she can. She does stay in character.
I was looking for a bit of dialogue to hammer home the point, but
Lilah's almost never explicit about what she's thinking. My feeling,
at least, is that it felt clear even in late S3 (before he's made any
effort to "save" her) that she thinks he can be more than he is (by
her definition), she doesn't like the thought of him "going to
waste." This is probably the Buffyverse relation****p built most
strongly on the foundation of two people trying to change each other
(although feel free to dust off the Wesley/Spike parallels). That's
usually a recipe for the total failure of a romance, but in this case,
the moments of affection feel very genuine. The inherent instability
of the whole thing has to be a turn-on for Lilah, too, though I'm not
as sure about Wes.
-AOQ
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