On Apr 1, 4:06 pm, "One Bit Shy" <O...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in
messagenews:80a62083-4116-489e-b083-058865f32990@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
>
> > On Mar 28, 10:54 pm, "One Bit Shy" <O...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
> >> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in
> >>
messagenews:fa8b334a-57c9-43e2-aeb3-07cbc0558d92@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >> On Mar 27, 12:40 am, "One Bit Shy" <O...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
> >> >> Let me use this op****tunity to make what may be
> >> >> my
> >> >> only defense of Kennedy this season. Her romance with Willow is
the
> >> >> obvious
> >> >> big deal with her. But as a Potential, her function is to be the
one
> >> >> most
> >> >> ready and eager for personal empowerment.
> >> > [snip]
> >> >> Highlighting this is a useful function for Kennedy. She may be
> >> >> annoying
> >> >> as
> >> >> hell, but at least part of that has a righteous basis as she acts
as
> >> >> agitator and leader for the empowerment cause. One of the curious
> >> >> things
> >> >> about her is that Buffy doesn't really come down on her, even as
she
> >> >> speaks
> >> >> in defiance of Buffy. Maybe Buffy sees a little of herself in
> >> >> Kennedy -
> >> >> I'm
> >> >> not sure. I think it's more that Kennedy actually takes to heart
what
> >> >> Buffy
> >> >> tries to instill in the Potentials, and Buffy sees that. Her
> >> >> impetuous
> >> >> inexperience is a lot easier to forgive than betrayal by Giles or
> >> >> undermining by Xander.
>
> >> > I'll give you Giles, but Xander's generally a voice of reason, if
not
> >> > assertiveness, during S7.
>
> >> Most of the time, yeah. I was thinking of the Get It Done argument
when
> >> Buffy pretty much took Kennedy's sass in stride - even trying to make
a
> >> point out of it - but couldn't get past Xander's. Xander's follow-up
> >> retorts.
> >> It pretty much undermined the point she was trying to make. Though
she
> >> went
> >> and found another way to get the message across.
>
> > I had a different take on that. Especially earlier in the scene,
> > Xander's speaking up on behalf of everyone who's getting insulted
> > while trying to reasonably respond to what's being said. Everyone
> > else is angry, but Xander doesn't raise his voice while telling Buffy
> > what he thinks she needs to hear. "But let's not try to forget, we're
> > also your friends." The net effect may be to undermine Buffy's point,
> > but I don't think it's any harder to forgive than Kennedy's
> > confrontational-ness (easier for me, if only because I like him
> > better).
>
> So he didn't yell while he pulled the rug out from under her. He still
> undermined her. Not only did it take her off point, it made her look
bad in
> the process. Kennedy didn't achieve either. Kennedy also doesn't know
> better - which Buffy stated. Xander should - which was the implication
of
> Buffy's statement. Another way in which Xander served to undermine her.
> Consciously so in that sense. Even though he probably believed he had
good
> reason to.
He certainly thinks he had good reason to. Maybe she doesn't have a
direct response to everything he says because it's something she needs
to hear.
> I may come back to this when we get to the episode.
Nah, there's no rule saying this post-series stuff shouldn't be an
open discussion. It's a chance to follow tangents wherever in the
show they may lead.
>I think it's an
> interesting argument - one of the better ones this season. Buffy's
> leader****p isn't the only issue. Indeed, it could be argued that the
> greater issue is the role of the followers - the ones in need of
> empowerment. Xander is being mighty obtuse about Buffy's message that
she
> *can't* be there for them all of the time - that everybody has to take
on
> their own responsibility to stay alive. He essentially rejects the
charge,
> pushes it back upon Buffy, and then mocks her authority. Not one of his
> finer moments IMO.
It's no one's finest moment. Buffy's frustrated after having failed
Chloe no more or less than anyone else (and you know she'll blame
herself for it). She's been stewing about it alone, digging the
grave. Seeing everyone together, she lashes out, insulting people's
recently dead friend and, subsequently, everyone in the room. They
react. "Get It Done" is an interesting episode, more so than I
initially gave it credit for, but one thing I have trouble getting
past is that it's perhaps the one time in the series in which I find
Buffy genuinely unpleasant and hard to like. Now, whether or not
everyone ultimately benefits from this bit of tough love, whether
Buffy's giving them what they need from her... well, it's kinda a
separate albeit related topic, and maybe we will defer that after all
for when we discuss the episode.
I'll just add that, as also shown during the "Dirty Girls"/"Empty
Places" period, for someone who preaches empowerment, Buffy doesn't
really seem into actually letting it happen.
XANDER: You're our leader, Buffy, as in "follow the."
BUFFY: Well, from now on, I'm your leader as in "do what I say."
As Our Dear Keptain Reey-nooolds might say, I'm glad we've made that
distinction.
> Buffy stumbles too of course, but I was speaking to the impressions made
> upon her. Kennedy didn't throw her - it was almost to be expected.
> Xander's response actually hurt. Though in this case it threw her into
a
> pissed off mode where her "get it done" attitude succeeded in spurring
> action and making the point anyway.
It doesn't stop her from making the point she was trying to make. If
anything, she just gets even pissier and more personal about it, but
the scene remains dominated by her speech. Willow will also challenge
what Buffy's saying, despite having herself just suggested that
Kennedy was out of line. It's notable that Buffy continues to
implicitly accept them as part of the core group who're by her side
when they bust out the emergency kit, as if their input is expected.
(Kennedy kinda gets inducted too, for that matter.)
In conclusion, I don't have a hard time forgiving Xander.
-AOQ
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