"Michael Ikeda" <mmikeda@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
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> "One Bit Shy" <OBS@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in
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>
>> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsmtsm@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
>> news:4cdb5302-bf6f-4392-a100-8bc04815235b@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> s.com...
>
>>
>>> Keep everyone else running around in circles during
>>> the few weeks it takes to have herself as a baby. I'll go a
>>> step further in the same direction. Rightly or wrongly,
>>> Jasmine has fixated on Angel as her greatest enemy, the world's
>>> champion. One she's born, he'll be harmless, but until then,
>>> he's the threat. She knows that she can't hide the fact of her
>>> pregnancy from him forever. And - here's the crux of this
>>> argument - she knows for an absolute fact that he will find out
>>> quickly, and upon doing so, he will recognize that the birth is
>>> an evil thing, and he will stop it. Make it mystical instinct
>>> if necessary. Her solution is to do whatever it takes to get
>>> him under her control, or, failing that, at least get him out
>>> of the world-saving picture (in a way that also ties his
>>> sidekicks up). Molding Connor into her champion and going into
>>> hiding is plan B, which helps her get through the last few
>>> days, but only barely. It wouldn't have been enough had she
>>> not kept Angel away until then.
>>
>> The pregnancy, as we know, is brief. Going low profile would
>> have been as simple as telling Angel that she needs a couple
>> weeks to work this out on her own, and then taking off to Death
>> Valley or something (with Connor in tow if she wants). It
>> wouldn't be the first time that she's taken time off.
>
> Some thoughts:
>
> 1) Perhaps the way that Jasmine sees the world is still influenced
> by how Cordelia saw the world. Jasmine sees Angel as a great
> champion who she must neutralize because Cordelia saw him as a great
> champion--as a hero who would always find a way to help her.
>
> (There is precedent for this sort of influence. Vampires, for
> example. And the First Evil seems to be influenced by the
> personality of the beings whose form it takes.)
Illyria seemed to be heading towards a more interesting exploration of
that.
I think you're right that it's something that the two series has always
explored to some extent. It goes back to Jesse in BtVS's second episode
defining that as a critical issue with vampires. And with The Pack, the
resulting creature very much brings into question what's a manifestation
of
Xander and what's from the hyena. I'm not ill disposed to thinking along
those lines - especially since I think Illyria is constructed in part to
be
a parallel to Jasmine.
But to my eyes it doesn't look like that's what's actually done. As
presented Jasmine seems to just play Cordelia to the extent necessary -
which, by the time she's with Connor alone isn't Cordy like at all. The
extent to which she actually acts like Cordy appears to me to be defined
by
how much has been revealed first to the audience and then to team Angel.
Meanwhile, the plot by Jasmine begins immediately upon return of her
memory - Apocalypse Nowish is the next episode. By all appearances the
grand plan was worked out in advance in a fashion that's not really
distorted by Cordy logic and emotions.
That's not to say that Cordy logic didn't show up as the plan unfolded.
But
all that does for me is continue to make this a hopeless mire to figure
out.
The show seems to point everywhere and say nothing. My ultimate
conclusion
is that sense is not what this is about. On the contrary, it's all
supposed
to be a false exercise where nothing is real. Nothing is to be believed.
Nothing has meaning. Skip will claim that it's all been an illusion for
years. This particular exercise leads to Jasmine and the charade of her
shiny happy people. More broadly the season is focused through Connor as
the object of everything (sort of like Dawn was in BtVS S5). The primary
effect on him is the conclusion that everything is a lie. That he's just
some kind of tool for the people close to him to manipulate through
deception. The ultimate season conclusion is to make everything disappear
and replace it with a more likable replacement. Next season starts as if
the last two seasons pretty much didn't happen.
That's how far the show is willing to go with the notion that everything
you
see is a facade. I really don't think there is or ever was a meaningful
plan with Angelus, Beast, rain of fire or darkened sun.
Back to the idea of a kind of personal influence by Cordy, one thing that
I
think might have been neat - and it's sometimes semi-suggested - is for
Jasmine to feel some kind of personal connection to Angel herself. Maybe
by
Cordy influence. Or perhaps a soft spot for her sort of "grandfather".
She
does seem to act like Angel is special even after her birth. But I don't
think this actually gets pushed anymore than any other idea.
> 2) Jasmine concluded, either from prophecies, or from divine
> intuition that Angel would be a threat to her plans. So she decides
> to eliminate the threat by turning him into Angelus.
She could. But with the demonstrated readiness of this series to
incorporate prophecies into its stories, why wouldn't it show some of that
now?
> (It is not clear whether this actually helped her in the long run.)
Creating Angelus seems to have been the primary means to her discovery and
near destruction. Although creating the Beast comes in a close second.
After her birth, none of this seems relevant - except to the ongoing
effect
upon Connor, who I think all of this is really aimed at.
>>> This is fanwank, and clearly so. But what matters is that it's
>>> enough to satisfy my narrative sense and let me, personally,
>>> get past what would otherwise be the biggest hiccup in my
>>> enjoyment of re-watching Season Four. Any irritation left over
>>> when things don't fit can be transferred to the Jasmine
>>> episodes, which I don't like so much, without tainting my
>>> appreciation of the run leading to favorites like "Orpheus" and
>>> "Inside Out."
>>
>> OK. Here's the thing for me. It's not just Angel and Angelus.
>> It's the Beast and rain of fire and blotting out the sun too.
>> What does *any* of it accomplish other than alerting people that
>> trouble's coming?
>
> Two things.
>
> 1) The Beast, etc. would have helped Jasmine appear as a Savior.
> Various sorts of apocalyptic stuff happens. Then Jasmine appears and
> makes it all go away. Even without her mind-control powers that
> could get her an impressive following.
>
> And while she didn't really NEED the extra boost that would have
> given her, she might have wanted it as insurance in case her strength
> didn't build as rapidly as she hoped.
Maybe. Or maybe the Beast was just great in bed. I think there's about
equal evidence for that.
> 2) In the shorter term, nothing short of apocalyptic events are
> going to convince the Fang Gang that it's a good idea to bring out
> Angelus.
Which brings us full circle to Angelus being crucial to a plan without a
hint of an explanation.
Michael, I think your notions are fine - as good as I've seen on the
subject. I'm hardly shy myself about inferring a lot from little to no
evidence - seeking something consistent even if not directly pointed to.
One thing abut Joss shows that are generally to their credit is that they
try to avoid boring complicated explanations where leaving it to our
imagination works so much better.
It's just that these aren't tangential elements. The Beast, the rain of
fire, blotting out the sun & bringing back Angelus are THE central events
of
the middle half of the season. Our heroes battle and nearly break
themselves upon them. Yet meaningful explanation is denied all of them.
They just happen. It all feels empty to me as a result.
The only explanation that actually works for me, though I don't consider
it
an attribute, is that it's not supposed to be meaningful. Just as
everything this season is pretty much a lie. A bad dream literally to be
blotted out. When I look at how they use that to reset everything for S5,
I
imagine alternate dream endings like returning to Angel at the bottom of
the
sea having imagined the year in hallucination. Or maybe even returning
all
the way to waking from his night with Darla. Why not? It's no more out
there than they went with.
OBS
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