On May 9, 8:13 pm, "One Bit Shy" <O...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in
messagenews:dc6858d5-3498-434c-bf5c-20d482f615e4@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> > On May 8, 9:41 pm, "One Bit Shy" <O...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
> >> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in
> >>
messagenews:897ef869-8539-4170-9bbd-a34bc27442f1@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> >> With Connor, the only one who's really invested in him is Angel. The
> >> rest
> >> of the AI team is left in the dark about Angel's obsession the last
two
> >> episodes and then have their memories taken away to boot. We're told
> >> Jasmine cares, but we never get an explanation of why. She might as
well
> >> eat him along with all the others for all that we're really shown.
> >> Cordelia
> >> hasn't truly been in the picture since she ascended. What's
remarkable
> >> is
> >> how little he actually matters to anybody by the end except Angel. I
> >> suppose that perversely makes the memory wipe a kind of truth.
>
> > I agree with some of that, in that Angel is really the only character
> > to whom Connor is central, personally. I'm not as bothered as you,
> > and think the comparison to Dawn in BTVS Season Five is even more apt
> > than you suggest. Dawn is artificially tied to everyone else by the
> > fact that the fate of the world rests with her (Connor kinda is too),
> > but I don't really feel like her connection to anyone other than Buffy
> > is that strong in S5.
[etc.]
> > or anyone other than Buffy (and maybe Spike, but that's
> > strictly tied to impressing and/or living up to the expectations of
> > her sister).
>
> It's more than that. Spike's conversations with Dawn are used to draw
out
> the changes going on inside Spike. Sometimes more clearly than with
Buffy
> because, with Dawn, the obsession can be distanced. Look at their
> conversation in Tough Love for example. But again, I'm not talking
merely
> about people's feelings for Dawn directly. Dawn is central to Spike's
> character in S5 because protecting her is the catalyst to breaking
through
> Buffy's defenses, getting her to treat Spike like a man. Spike does
care
> about Dawn personally, but more im****tantly she is the object by which
> Spike's elevation beyond simple vampire can be measured. In the end he
> fails to protect Dawn, while Buffy succeeds in an act of ultimate
heroism.
> That little play (with Buffy as role model and Dawn as measure) is
> representative of Spike's upcoming story where he fails to repress his
evil,
> changes the paradigm by getting a soul, and ultimately mimics Buffy one
last
> time with his own act of ultimate heroism.
See, again, that's kinda my point. Dawn is primarily im****tant to
Spike's story because she's an extension of Buffy.
> Dawn is also the focal point for keeping Joyce's presence so strong past
her
> death. Buffy's grief alone isn't enough. Dawn is the constant reminder
of
> both Joyce's life and death and the charge to protect Dawn that Joyce
placed
> on Buffy so absolutely. It's funny, because I'm only so-so about Joyce
as a
> character over the years. Oddly, the unseen ghost of her seems more
> powerful than her living self.
It's the effect on Buffy that counts. In this case.
> Dawn is also one of the catalysts for the development of the looming
> Buffy/Giles schism. Buffy's growing sense of responsibility for Dawn
has a
> lot to do with Buffy questioning anew her calling. This eventually
leads to
> what I think may be the critical moment between them when Giles insists
that
> Buffy be prepared to kill Dawn. That divide is essentially the same as
> their divide over Spike in S7.
Suffice to say that Giles was kinda your project this time through.
Feel free to keep trying to make any kind of sense at all out of what
BTVS does to Giles in S6-7, and I reserve the right ot read it without
feeling any better about the show's choices.
> It's not that Dawn matters personally to everybody. It's more that, one
way
> or the other, an awful lot of crucial character elements are fed through
> her. And where that doesn't happen, her focus for seasonal themes does.
> Most of which builds across the season, centering on her with greatest
force
> at the very end, where everybody at the very least sees her fate
determining
> their life and death. For a few, considerably more is at stake.
>
> That's very different with Connor. The season does center on him in the
> end, but it's presented as somewhat a surprise. And only Angel cares -
or
> is even aware of it. Jasmine is dead. Cordelia is in a coma, and
hasn't
> been engaged in Connor for ages anyway. Fred, Gunn & Wesley had been
> focused on Jasmine, with Connor only a side concern, probably below
Cordelia
> in im****tance. For the real end they don't know anything is going on -
> already effectively written out of Connor's story - and then have their
> memories of Connor purged. It's quite odd how the climax to a
dominating
> two plus year story going back to Angel/Darla *** concludes in such
privacy.
>
> I'm sure that's deliberate. Maybe even deliberately a contrast to Dawn.
> (Connor is the anti-Dawn.) I think it is a clever approach to writing.
Not
> least of all because even though it so private, the repercussions are
huge
> and global. Angel slashes Connor's throat and bends reality every bit
as
> much as Dawn's birth bended it.
>
> There's also an extra zing to what's at stake for Connor that's not
there
> with Dawn. With Dawn it's all about whether she lives or dies. That's
> certainly a big deal - especially since Buffy's epiphany about blood
> connection gives extra metaphorical meaning to her life. Like
Pinocchio,
> the magical Key becomes a real girl. But in character development
terms,
> there's very little. What character development there is with Dawn
pretty
> much finished in Tough Love. By then it had been narrowed to coming to
> terms with magical roots anyway. Just leaving the question of whether
she's
> really human or not. Connor's life is at stake too. But with him it's
less
> a question of who he is than a question of what kind of man he'll
become.
> It's very forward looking - even as he lays out in a couple great
> performances the essence of what he'd been dragged down to in the
meantime.
>
> So my commentary isn't meant as all critical about AtS. There's good
stuff
> to be found in there. Personal tastes certainly have a lot to do with
how
> it balances out for you.
That's not a bad explanation of why I think Connor has more depth than
S5 Dawn, who's always seemed as much plot device as character. (And
afterward, character who didn't always fit so well in the show. Once
we're past that season and Buffy's no longer centrally concerned with
protecting her family at all costs, using it as a barometer for her
ability to love, etc. - the stuff you talk about above - Dawn's just
kinda there. I remember being intrigued by people's idea of her as
becoming a new-generation kind of Watcher in S7, but then when I was
reading the comics, Joss wasn't taking her there at all.) As I'll get
to in a second, I'm happier not concentrating so many catalyst moments
around a miracle teen this time.
> > Like Dawn, Connor is a focal character without being the
> > main character, since he's there in large part to provide pathos for
> > the hero.
>
> I agree with that, but again it's a matter of degree. The interests of
> Angel and Buffy are comparable in scale, if not quite in content.
(Though
> Angel as dad and Buffy as substitute mom offers content parallels too.)
The
> extent to which Connor's part reaches outwards seems far less to me than
it
> does for Dawn. The biggest I think is upon Wesley, though that's still
> focused on the S3 abduction. S4 shows us the consequences of that, but
it
> also shows the distancing of it. Wesley is almost normal again by the
end.
> Connor's a big deal to Jasmine - until her birth. After that... well, I
> suppose Connor's story hovers around Lilah's too. It seems kind of
indirect
> to me though. Jasmine got her killed - not Connor. All in all,
Connor's
> outward influence seems to peter out pretty quickly.
I think that's kinda why I'm not as bothered as you sometimes seem to
be by the notion that S3/4 is all about Connor (although then it seems
you also like the idea of giving the story a defined thing to be
"about" rather than a bunch of stuff happening. Well, I'll let you
speak for yourself). He's one of a chain of im****tant events, and a
key reason he picks up extra significance at the end and elsewhere is
because he's so very significant to his dad. For most of the year, no
one (possibly including the writers) knows that Connor's spawn is the
point of what's going on, and even after that, he himself seems like
more of a backup plan and thus a peripheral character until the
Jasmine arc proper. It may indeed be more unfocused, but it also
keeps things from getting too monotonous or seeming to revolve around
one character. For what it's worth, people remember the major world-
shaking events of S4 once Vail's veil is in place, and forget some of
the personal stuff... and I'm also struck by how by the end, Wes is
the only one besides Connor himself whose memories seem to matter. I
don't have the necessary background to take the religious analogy all
that far, but it's fair to say that it's only one part of what's going
on throughout S4. For better or for worse.
> > So, is it a weakness that Angel's team is outside of this relation****p
> > and often kept in the dark about all Angel's going through? Maybe,
> > but I'm used to that. I'm always surprised that some people see the
> > series as an ensemble show in a way that rivals BTVS.
>
> Well, it is an ensemble show, and BtVS sits obviously available as
> comparison. But you're quite right that the balance is different. AtS
is
> more exclusively centered on Angel than BtVS is centered on Buffy.
Not everyone seems to agree with that. Although we didn't have time
to go into it, Scythe tried to make the case last time that ATS is a
working ensemble rather than just people who hang out together, and
that the core group is destabilized and changed more by the removal of
a member than is the case for the Scoobies. I don't know if the
concepts are necessarily mutually exclusive; if Buffy's maybe more
self-sufficient than Angel, it doesn't mean her sidekicks can't get
plenty of screen time and development.
> >> > Additional comments on S4D6: As Tim comment, ATS quickly became
much
> >> > more personal than the original idea of doing a metaphor for young
> >> > adulthood where _Buffy_ tackled broody melodramatic adolescence and
> >> > post-adolescence. But this time they went for it, blunt and
> >> > straightforward (which makes me wonder why I didn't pick up on it,
> >> > given that it's not subtle). Team Angel, All Growed Up, gets a job
> >> > working for the Man, nervous for the state of its soul but
determined
> >> > to keep its idealism intact while making a mark in the cor****ate
> >> > world. Right out of the psyche of a broody melodramatic twenty-
> >> > something.
>
> >> That's one of the reasons I never liked the S5 concept. To me it's
too
> >> late
> >> for that metaphor now. The show and these characters have moved past
it.
> >> Too many loners. Too jaded.
>
> > Obviously you'll never like that particular construct, but it doesn't
> > bother me too much, just because I'm used to these shows never getting
> > past the attraction of a metaphor. It doesn't feel substantially more
> > artificial than the rest of BTVS and ATS.
>
> Remember, I'm not reacting to concept alone. We do get to see how it
plays
> out. Do you really think they got good use out of that metaphor for
young
> adulthood? How does it compare to BtVS's metaphor for high school as
hell?
> There are things I like a lot about S5. This isn't among them.
Not much good use beyond the initial concept (which I again like
fine). S5 has enough different agendas that it kinda goes from
metaphor to almost entirely being played straight, which may be part
of what you dislike about the handling.
-AOQ
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