"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsmtsm@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
news:18d12bf0-71d0-416d-ab12-1b3b0ab6b347@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> On May 9, 8:13 pm, "One Bit Shy" <O...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
> See, again, that's kinda my point. Dawn is primarily im****tant to
> Spike's story because she's an extension of Buffy.
Well, either I've lost the thread of conversation or we're saying the same
thing. As you say later, Dawn is a device at least as much as a
character.
It's not Dawn the person that matters so much. Even with Buffy it's Dawn
the symbolic representation of life, death, love, Joyce & Slayer duty as
much as it is Dawn the sister. What I was trying to say is that Dawn -
whether as device or character - openly links to what is im****tant to a
wide
range of characters more so than Connor does. She's a device that engages
the breadth of the show even when it's not about her personally.
>> Dawn is also the focal point for keeping Joyce's presence so strong
past
>> her
>> death. Buffy's grief alone isn't enough. Dawn is the constant
reminder
>> of
>> both Joyce's life and death and the charge to protect Dawn that Joyce
>> placed
>> on Buffy so absolutely. It's funny, because I'm only so-so about Joyce
>> as a
>> character over the years. Oddly, the unseen ghost of her seems more
>> powerful than her living self.
>
> It's the effect on Buffy that counts. In this case.
Sure. She affects, but isn't much affected. Dawn messes up the world.
The
world messes up Connor. I know that's a little simplistic since some of
the
reverse happens to both. But in broad brush that's the tendency I see.
>> Dawn is also one of the catalysts for the development of the looming
>> Buffy/Giles schism. Buffy's growing sense of responsibility for Dawn
has
>> a
>> lot to do with Buffy questioning anew her calling. This eventually
leads
>> to
>> what I think may be the critical moment between them when Giles insists
>> that
>> Buffy be prepared to kill Dawn. That divide is essentially the same as
>> their divide over Spike in S7.
>
> Suffice to say that Giles was kinda your project this time through.
> Feel free to keep trying to make any kind of sense at all out of what
> BTVS does to Giles in S6-7, and I reserve the right ot read it without
> feeling any better about the show's choices.
Well, you asked...
Heh. I think that's a futile hope since a good part of why I wanted to
look
at that was my dissatisfaction with the presentation of late series Giles.
I don't think there ever will be a satisfactory way of explaining his
abandonment of Buffy in S6 or his treachery with Spike in S7. They're
both
botched to my mind.
The best I could hope for was to find some structure around his character
able to explain intent, even if it can't rationalize away the execution.
And besides, I'd never thought much about Giles having an arc before. The
notion that Giles had personally taken on the mantle of the WC in S7 was
entirely fresh to me when I read of it here in response to your first
reviews.
I met with some success I think. You can see seeds of tension placed on
Giles going back to WTTH when he realizes that he has to sacrifice some
core
Watcher tenets to win the cooperation of Buffy. For the first 3 seasons
at
least, his story goes in parallel with Buffy's story, where he's a
different
kind of Watcher in much the same sense that Buffy is a different kind of
Slayer. The biggest seed of change is probably placed in Helpless where
the
onerous Watcher traditions push him to outright rebellion, with the
perverse
result of Buffy passing the test spectacularly well (arguably validating
the
test), while he is cast out - left without a purpose. Initially this only
intensifies his rebellion (played out with Wesley) and his personal tie to
Buffy. Indeed, I don't recall this episode being directly referenced
much.
But it is a kind of turning point where his life loses much of its focus,
and one can certainly imagine his firing gnawing at him. Could he have
been
wrong? It works foundationally I think.
S4 introduces a divide of sorts between him and Buffy by virtue of simple
separation as Buffy gets engaged with a life of her own not dependent on
Giles. There's no real antipathy between them, though Giles does show
some
irritation with his lot. It's a drifting kind of year that I think mostly
just puts some space between their extreme closeness of early years and
the
divisions to come. Restless will also introduce the notion of Giles being
in the way of Buffy's development as he leads an infantile Buffy around
the
carnival.
S5 is where I think the later Giles arc takes off, perversely by first
restoring the Watcher/Slayer relation****p. In retrospect, I think a
couple
of unintended things may have happened. First, what had developed over
the
last couple years into an easy friend****p between equals, suddenly became
formalized into a teacher/student relation****p. A second go around that I
think serves to distance them rather than draw them together like it did
the
first. At the same time Giles rediscovers purpose through his old
personal
calling as Watcher. Subconsciously that likely validates the Watcher
model
for Giles, and leads him to become more conservative - more of a purist in
its ways. I think I forgot to mention this in our last S5 discussion, but
his rehiring as Watcher in Checkpoint can also be seen as a symbolic
return
to the fold as well as literal. He may still be outwardly contemptuous of
the WC bureaucracy, but mentally he's a believer again.
As Giles becomes more of a Watcher, Buffy becomes more of a doubter as
S5's
version of the Slayer trap tightens around her. (There's an irony in how
Buffy in S4 was totally at ease with being a Slayer, while Giles drifted
with no purpose. I don't want to assign causality to this, but Buffy's
angst over her Slayer identity sure seems to decline when Giles isn't an
influence.) I think the first overt sign of impending division occurs in
Intervention when Giles recoils at Buffy's sense that she's losing her
capacity to love. For a moment we see them on completely different
planes.
Buffy is seeking to reconnect with her life outside of slaying. Giles
seeks
to reconnect her to her Slayer self. So he sends her on a Slayer quest.
Buffy is dubious - that's not at all what she thought she was looking for
-
and the results are initially terrible. Death is my gift? It pushes
Buffy
to question her Slayer status even more. It turns out that Giles was
right,
that the quest was exactly what Buffy needed. But hardly in any sense
that
Giles anticipated or would approve of. The spirit guide essentially told
Buffy that she would find her way through love. In their later spat over
Dawn, Giles would take the position that love was clouding Buffy's
judgment.
At a much lower level, but just as telling, we get another peak at the
building disconnect between the two when Buffy asks Giles for help taking
care of Dawn. Giles responds very abstractly about what Dawn needs. (In
other words, he says no.) But Buffy wasn't really asking for Dawn's
benefit
(even if she thought so), but rather for her own. Buffy was the one who
needed help. This was painfully obvious to the outside viewer, but Giles
was either oblivious to it or in denial about it.
I always find that brief scene very sad because it shows them unaware of
how
they're far less close than they think they are. I think the scene
somewhat
presages a couple of things. First it distances Giles from Dawn. In the
coming spat, Giles will question whether Dawn is even human - as he
suggests
that Dawn may need to be killed. Giles has a similar attitude towards
Spike
in S7. The refusal to help Buffy - to make her stand on her own - also
speaks directly to his attitude towards Buffy in S6. As does a kind of
almost willful blindness to Buffy's own desperate needs.
That last is crucial to the failings of S6's depiction of Giles. Seeing
where they're going with Giles as the new embodiment of the Watcher ideal,
I
think I can see a useful thematic element. The Slayer is supposed to be
alone. A true Watcher doesn't recognize how a Slayer can gain strength
from
family and friends, but rather focuses on how they get in the way and
create
a burden for them. While not directly stated, that comes across well
enough
in S5, where the notion is only beginning to well within Giles again.
It's
much stronger in S7, albeit somewhat muddled by the coincident
responsibility for all the people in the Summers abode. Still, the hard
decisions generals make is all about distancing her from those people on a
personal level. Obviously so with Spike, as far as Giles is concerned.
S6 is harder to see, since the family and friends aren't burdens so much,
and Buffy wants to distance herself from them anyway. But part of the
distancing is supposed to be with the Watcher too. This is when a direct
reference to Helpless might have been useful.
Quentin: Your affection for your charge has rendered you incapable of
clear
and impartial judgment. You have a father's
love for the child, and that is useless to the cause. It would be best if
you had no further contact with the Slayer.
Instead, the show chose to limit itself to the softer Restless perspective
of just being in the way, which wasn't up to the task at hand. In your
original reviews I also went in depth into other possible influences. One
I
especially like is how Buffy's death had allowed Giles to move on from his
Buffy connection. Having so completely let go as to already having moved
back to England once, had to make it very difficult for Giles to just jump
back in as if nothing had changed. Alas, that was only very lightly
hinted
at if at all.
As harsh as his decision to leave Buffy in S6 was, I don't think it was
presented as a hard hearted enough decision. The problem with the
Restless
model for Giles is that it doesn't link up well with the S7 version of
Giles
making the decisions that generals do to win wars. S5 does link up with
S7
on just those lines. The argument over Dawn's life is on the same terms
as
is S7's dispute over Spike. Only in S7 Giles acted on it as well.
In S6 and S7 the problem moments especially fail for depending too much on
Giles being thick headed. Once Giles learns the underlying cause to
Buffy's
problems in S6, at the very least one would expect him to step back and
re-*****s what to do about it. In S7, at the very least I would expect
Giles to consider the possibility of Buffy coming at him with an axe
should
the assassination of Spike succeed. S6 needs better rationale. S7 needs
more setup to get across urgency and desperation that could overcome
judgment.
I think there's some decent drama to having Giles eventually be poisoned
by
his Watcher heritage, turning himself into a caricature of what he once
rejected and believes he still does reject. I think it works pretty well
as
the basis for the S7 Buffy/Giles schism. It's a come full circle kind of
story as once again they spar on the basic elements of what a Slayer is.
Giles must come anew to the revelation that a different way of thinking is
required. S7's final failure is to handle that last by turning the page
and
finding Giles suddenly with a new attitude. I'll speak more to that when
you do those reviews. But that's a relatively small criticism. At least
he
gets there.
All in all, I think there is a sense to his arc, though I think the S6
****tion of it hangs together the weakest. There are a couple pretty big
down moments of inexplicable behavior that I can only rationalize in terms
of intent if only they'd done it differently.
There is one last problem. Do I actually like it? Even with imagined
corrections? Not really no. The history between Buffy and Giles does
allow
for some good drama - a plus. But it still degrades the character, who
spends S7 especially being a crank with little to offer. To some extent
that was true in S4 too, but Giles was much more engaging then, and still
a
contributor in spite of his gentleman of leisure routine. In S7 there
seems
like a kind of emptiness around him as he's pompous, obnoxious and mostly
ignored. (See Blind Date.) Even with the return to his senses at the
end,
he's relegated to cheerleader as he applauds Buffy's idea while Willow
does
all the research and work. S6 doesn't bother me as much, since he retains
an impact during his limited time. In spite of the problems with the
depiction, leaving Buffy carries a huge emotional impact specifically
because of how big a deal it is - how im****tant he is. There's also the
amazing spat between him and Willow. And then he does the heavy lifting
of
saving the world, even if Xander gets all the credit. So there are things
to redeem his role in S6. Not so much in S7.
> (although then it seems
> you also like the idea of giving the story a defined thing to be
> "about" rather than a bunch of stuff happening. Well, I'll let you
> speak for yourself)
Sort of. I think some kind of thematic center is very im****tant in any
kind
of series - even the cheesiest situation comedy - just to anchor it - to
provide some kind of reference point. It need not obsessively be all that
it's about. In AtS S4, until it finally becomes clear that everything is
being centered onto Connor, the only unifying factor that I can see is
that
you can't believe anything you see, which serves to constantly deny
meaning.
So it really is a relief to find a center in Connor. The string of lies
and
delusions all season long finally given meaning as the are represented in
Connor's destruction.
I'd be happy if that was less pervasive, and do indeed suspect that the
earlier intent was to have Cordelia as a comparable center. (Though as it
turns out she's just another false direction.) On the other hand, this is
a
Whedon series. He may not have had his hands as deeply into the scripts
as
with the other series, but on a high level it reeks of Joss, who does get
obsessive about hammering at themes. (Remember what I pointed out about
how
nearly every BtVS S2 episode included some level of ambiguity over a
potential killing, where the monster and the humanity of the victim are
both
shown.) I think it's both a strength and a weakness for Whedon. It's
amazing sometimes how many ways he can do it. I love the hidden in plain
view stuff. But it also can get indulgent and overbearing.
>> Well, it is an ensemble show, and BtVS sits obviously available as
>> comparison. But you're quite right that the balance is different. AtS
>> is
>> more exclusively centered on Angel than BtVS is centered on Buffy.
>
> Not everyone seems to agree with that. Although we didn't have time
> to go into it, Scythe tried to make the case last time that ATS is a
> working ensemble rather than just people who hang out together, and
> that the core group is destabilized and changed more by the removal of
> a member than is the case for the Scoobies. I don't know if the
> concepts are necessarily mutually exclusive; if Buffy's maybe more
> self-sufficient than Angel, it doesn't mean her sidekicks can't get
> plenty of screen time and development.
The way I see it is that the "hang out together" aspect is a reflection of
them having their own lives. AI truly lives for Angel.
Don't get me wrong. Many ensemble shows are far more diverse than BtVS.
The STNG crew may revolve around Picard, but the series isn't about him.
BtVS is intensely about Buffy from start to end. It's just that AtS is
even
more about Angel.
OBS
|
