"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsmtsm@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
news:72d1efbd-52b9-4685-92e9-65bcf725d2fa@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> On Apr 16, 12:02 am, "One Bit Shy" <O...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in
>>
messagenews:4cdb5302-bf6f-4392-a100-8bc04815235b@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>
>> I think what I like best about this episode is it concludes with
Angelus
>> taking charge of the situation. For 3 episodes running, Angelus has
>> actually lived up to his reputation of being formidable, if not quite
for
>> being blood thirsty. He's now undermined the unknown master (Jasmine)
>> and
>> the AI team both quite effectively. He almost got Faith too -
impressive
>> quick thinking by her barely preventing it. For a brief moment Angelus
>> is a
>> genuine 3rd major player in the mix that could turn everything upside
>> down.
>
> Adds to the chaos. And I'm always rooting for him whenever evil goes
> up against evil, because he's an aspect of our main character - he
> should be formidable. He shouldn't play second fiddle to a villain
> called "the Beastmaster."
I agree, though the perverse side of me can't help but note that "the
Beastmaster" would be Satan or something comparably godlike (like
Jasmine).
The concept, the name and the apocalyptic deeds do tie into the religious
themes running through the background of the season. (I suppose that
thematic connection might be the only meaningful reason for the Beast and
his extravagant ways.)
>> There's not enough Connor here - or in any of the surrounding episodes
-
>> for
>> him to really get in the way (plus we get his first knocking around by
>> Faith), but I'll note that just about every second he's on the screen
>> annoys
>> me. As he does in all the episodes on this disk and going back some in
>> the
>> prior disk. Just seeing his smug face gets me muttering.
>
> I simply don't have the visceral reaction to Connor that some do,
> although I kinda understand it on an intellectual level at this point
> in the series (not so much elsewhere). Fortunately, he tends to be at
> his most annoying in episodes in which he's not central enough to be
> more than a nagging background thing.
Hangover continues even after Jasmine appears, but at least it's heading
for
a conclusion as things become a little more clearly about Connor. There
are
some better acting op****tunities too.
>> > Season Four, Episode 14: "Release"
>> > This is also a story that
>> > will incor****ate a lot being done with subtle glances and the notion
>> > of blame, Wesley fully throwing himself into the part of the dark
>> > Watcher and Faith making the choice to follow his path against her
>> > "best nature," and the image of Faith on the ground before Angel
>> > again, this time begging to live. In short, this is some deep ****.
>>
>> Dark watcher indeed. This is just about as low as Wesley gets for me.
>> (I
>> don't mean that I disapprove of the story. I love the drama of it.)
The
>> way he manipulates Faith by recalling her torture is rather appalling.
>> (He
>> doesn't really care anymore. After having his throat slit and then
>> abandoned by his friends - well, the Faith history is comparatively
>> trivial
>> to him.) The way he achieves his ends works, but how he does it...
well,
>> I'll come back to this in Oprheus.
>>
>> It's still good for Faith though. There's some nice setup for her
>> story's
>> conclusion - having Angelus compare himself to her just as Angel once
>> did.
>> And in this brief connection with Wesley, no matter how twisted it
might
>> be,
>> she gets her moment as a true Slayer.
>
> There was a little bit of discussion last time about whether this is
> the closest we get to a traditional Slayer/Watcher team, in all its
> potency and all its mutual destructiveness. Here in L.A., so far
> removed from that other TV show whose mythology it belongs to. It's
> fascinating.
I think it tilts to a more perverse side. Plus, saving a vampire isn't
exactly a traditional Slayer/Watcher objective. Helpless as a model might
point to something like this. But our models of traditional also include
Kendra and the earlier version of Wesley himself. That nuance probably
doesn't matter though. It's got to be a psychological release for both of
them no matter how twisted it is or isn't.
>> > Special mention for one of the single least convincing uses
>> > of a blue/green screen in Buffyverse history during the shower scene,
>> > although it'll soon be topped by the end of "Sacrifice."
>>
>> What are you referring to?
>
> Most of the falling water clearly isn't touching Faith, since it
> exists in a dimension that she is not in. It's a little
> embarrassing. Not quite as much so as when Angel first pops up in the
> demon dimension and is a different brightness than everything else,
> like in a cheap fake celebrity photo, but still bad.
Oh. I see what you mean. It's kind of odd, because she does get wet. I
wonder what it looks like without the spray.
>> > Okay, it's time for a big bit of hand-waving. We're told that
>>
>> > everything Pod!Cordy does was for the single-minded purpose of
getting
>> > Angel de-souled. Well, *why*? How does this contribute to arranging
>> > for giving birth, especially since Good Angel returning doesn't seem
>> > to make much of a difference?
>
>> > Why not just, oh, say, keep a low
>> > profile?
>
>> > I joked that I've been saving up as many fanwanking points as
possible
>> > so I can spend them all here. The best most people can come up with
>> > is distraction.
>>
>> The best I have in-story is that Jasmine screwed up. First by not
>> realizing
>> how strongly independent and effective Angelus would be as a free
agent.
>> She assumed he would be easier to control. Then by not taking Willow
>> into
>> account. She progressively lost control of the situation and fell back
>> to
>> plan B - just barely successful. The unknown is what her original
intent
>> was. But let me come back to that. I think you've underestimated the
>> scope
>> of that question.
>
> Well, that's almost neater than my version, innit? "She had an
> elaborate plan that didn't work out; now, moving on..."
That's pretty much it. Neater maybe, but satisfactory?
>> > Keep everyone else running around in circles during
>> > the few weeks it takes to have herself as a baby. I'll go a step
>> > further in the same direction. Rightly or wrongly, Jasmine has
>> > fixated on Angel as her greatest enemy, the world's champion. One
>> > she's born, he'll be harmless, but until then, he's the threat. She
>> > knows that she can't hide the fact of her pregnancy from him forever.
>> > And - here's the crux of this argument - she knows for an absolute
>> > fact that he will find out quickly, and upon doing so, he will
>> > recognize that the birth is an evil thing, and he will stop it. Make
>> > it mystical instinct if necessary. Her solution is to do whatever it
>> > takes to get him under her control, or, failing that, at least get
him
>> > out of the world-saving picture (in a way that also ties his
sidekicks
>> > up). Molding Connor into her champion and going into hiding is plan
>> > B, which helps her get through the last few days, but only barely.
It
>> > wouldn't have been enough had she not kept Angel away until then.
>>
>> The pregnancy, as we know, is brief. Going low profile would have been
>> as
>> simple as telling Angel that she needs a couple weeks to work this out
on
>> her own, and then taking off to Death Valley or something (with Connor
in
>> tow if she wants). It wouldn't be the first time that she's taken time
>> off.
>
> This time it wouldn't work; the reason I'm trying to fanwank is that
> this needs to be true (or Cordy needs to believe it, anyway) for the
> story to make sense. He won't let her disappear entirely for too long
> (in this case, the fact that she's been popping in and out might make
> him less willing than ever to let her out of his extended sight), and
> she won't be able to hide her pregnancy. Again, make it mystical
> instinct if necessary - he'll feel it. Or instead run with Michael's
> interesting premise that Angel is a central figure in Pod!Cordy's
> world because of how the real Cordelia sees him.
So release a murderous Angelus who's known to focus first on those close
to
him. Nice solution.
I really don't have an objection to your idea or Michael's notions either.
But as I noted in response to him, this is an awfully big deal to leave
with
the statement that he's crucial to Cordelia's plan, but with no hint as to
the plan.
>> > This is fanwank, and clearly so. But what matters is that it's
enough
>> > to satisfy my narrative sense and let me, personally, get past what
>> > would otherwise be the biggest hiccup in my enjoyment of re-watching
>> > Season Four. Any irritation left over when things don't fit can be
>> > transferred to the Jasmine episodes, which I don't like so much,
>> > without tainting my appreciation of the run leading to favorites like
>> > "Orpheus" and "Inside Out."
>>
>> OK. Here's the thing for me. It's not just Angel and Angelus. It's
the
>> Beast and rain of fire and blotting out the sun too. What does *any*
of
>> it
>> accomplish other than alerting people that trouble's coming? The only
>> thing
>> I know of is the destruction of W&H. I suppose that's kind of big, but
>> that
>> only requires the Beast without the other flash/bang, and could be done
>> with
>> one strike, without making the Beast a player in anything else at all.
>> Indeed, it would/should look like trouble W&H brewed up on its own
rather
>> than trouble for Angel and team.
>
> The characters conclude that all the early stuff - the rain of fire,
> the sunblock, etc. - was orchestrated to let Cordelia lead the others
> to de-soul Angel. Do we agree with them? We've already discussed the
> weaknesses inherent in that plan as far as getting from point A to
> point Angelus, but if we take its success as a given, the only
> explanation still needed is the reason she's so obsessed with Angel.
> Which is what I take my best crack at above.
Accepting the first part as given is pretty big to swallow. Some we've
discussed. I also get the impression when Cordelia talks to the Beast
that
what Angelus is crucial to then (after Angelus is created) is tied into
whatever the Beast is doing. That creates the circular logic that the
Beast
is critical to Angelus who's critical to the Beast. Be that as it may,
all
of it is pretty vague. We're mostly making stuff up because the show
won't
tell us anything other than letting us think (mostly assume even here)
that
it somehow has something to do with birthing Jasmine.
> Other possible rationalizations for the Beast, although not
> particularly strong ones for me, come from the line about "birthing
> pains" in SHP, and from the idea that it'll improve Jasmine's image if
> she sends the Beast away (yeah, that's a real essential tool for
> someone who can fill people with overwhelming love for her just by
> being in the same room. Although as Michael points out, it could be a
> backup for if her power doesn't grow as quickly as hoped).
Whatever. I'm sort of kidding when I suggest that maybe she just wanted
some beastly nookie while she was stuck in Cordy's body. But you know,
the
show kind of tossed that idea out there too with the give me sugar scene.
Doesn't it feel like the show is just tossing everything against the wall
for the sake of confusion? I really don't think there's an answer.
>> This is a core problem with the season for me. There's no purpose to
>> most
>> of it until Jasmine finally is born. And then she proves to be more
>> annoying than just about anybody - maybe even Connor. It's a whole
bunch
>> of
>> noise signifying nothing. Even the Knights of Byzantium, who existed
>> pretty
>> much to take the fates lined up against Buffy to the level of
absurdity,
>> made more sense than the lead up to Jasmine.
>
> Okay, now here's where I'm at. One thing I've always tried to do, and
> run into occassional resistance for doing, is treat the episodes as
> individual building blocks that can be evaluated semi-autonomously on
> the rubric of "is this entertaining television?" I do this because I
> strongly believe that a good buildup isn't automatically negated by
> what comes later, any more than a crappy sequel retroactively makes a
> movie or book less good. The fact that something is an episode of a
> TV series or a volume in a trilogy or whatever is only somewhat
> relevant - it's still presented as a discrete piece. Here the fact
> that it's not paid off properly doesn't undo the fact that there's
> some great drama - something you obviously somewhat buy into given the
> string of Goods and Excellents. If it wasn't solid work, then I'd be
> more inclined to spend lots of viewing time saying "it feels like the
> writers are making this up as the go along. Is this ever going to
> make sense?"
When you watch a show like - say - Lost, then the interconnectedness of it
all is at least as much an attraction as the play of individual episodes.
For may viewers, a great deal more im****tant. So much so, that weak
episodes by themselves can be salvaged by their contribution to the
greater
whole.
Your point isn't invalid. It's just not the only force at work. Getting
lost in the setup may be why the payoff disappoints, for example. S4 of
AtS
is the least episodic season of either AtS or BtVS in my opinion. Whether
it's intricately planned or made up as it goes along, the thing being
constructed is still something that's supposed to be an integrated season
long narrative. I find it nigh on impossible to watch each episode on its
own terms because each episode so heavily arises from the past and points
to
the future.
If my premise is right about this season, then I think they actually
achieve
the integration they're after. You can't believe anything. Everything is
fungible. Why Cordy/Jasmine wanted Angelus doesn't much matter because,
as
Skip explains, Cordy's whole life doesn't matter, Jasmine's going to reset
the world to her liking anyway, until Angel resets it again to his liking.
There is no reality.
There are some abstractly interesting notions in that, but I find it an
empty experience in the end. Especially since the cap to it all is to
throw
two seasons away so as to create a pretty disconnected and absurdly
premised
season five.
> I would then enjoy these episodes less, and assign them
> more "blame" for the unwieldiness of the arc. I don't, and that
> includes re-watching. That's the difference that matters most to me.
> (Incidentally, ATS4 compares favorably to BTVS7 in that regard, for
> me.)
BtVS S7 hasn't fared very well for me on rewatch either. I'm probably
most
critical of that season, which I consider to be the weakest of its seven
year run. It does have the virtue of a very satisfying conclusion to the
season and series though. And a few other attributes. AtS S4 has
attributes too. Not as many though. And only a partially satisfactory
ending.
OBS
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