Re: Immaculate conception

On May 15, 4:15 pm, Jim Gysin <jimgy...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
> On Thu, 15 May 2008 12:03:14 -0700 (PDT), Darren Delgado
>
> <darrendelg...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
> > On May 15, 6:10 am, remysun2...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 wrote:
> > > On May 15, 12:01 am, Jim Gysin <jimgy...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>
> > > > Speaking only for myself here, the issue isn't that the beliefs of
> > > > others are being dismissed.  Rather, it's the insensitive and rude
and
> > > > arguably antagonistic way that the beliefs of others are being
> > > > dismissed.
>
> > > Jim pretty much says it all.  America's freedom of religion is built
> > > out of respect for differing viewpoints and beliefs.
>
> > No it isn't.  It is built on an amendment to the Constitution that
> > allows people to hold any beliefs they want without being persecuted.
>
> That is correct, and it all hinges on what constitutes persecution.  I'm
> not a fan of speech codes or hate crime laws, but if we're going to have
> them on the books, then all groups deserve equal protection.

Yeah, but, this is a complete non-sequitur.  I am not advocating hate
crimes against religious people, nor do I believe in speech codes for
any group's protection.  The problem here is that some people have
really irrational, dangerous, crazy ideas that get people killed, and
society gives them immunity even from being criticized about it,
because religion is so ingrained in our society.  You can see the
effects of that in this thread -- when someone even dares to suggest
that god impregnating a lady might be a slightly irrational idea, or
that talking to a burning bush might not really have happened, they
are so ****elded from criticism most of the time that they fly off the
handle when it happens.

> > The problem is that a lot of religious people do not want to merely be
> > "tolerated", they want their irrational beliefs to be respected and
> > honored by everybody without any weight given to the actual merit of
> > their arguments.
>
> Again, you're confusing respect/honor for beliefs with respect/honor for
> the person holding those beliefs.  You can demonstrate the latter even
> if you don't have the former.

I can respect you as a person even if you claim to be a Christian,
because *I don't think that most Christians have actually read the
bible.*  That's the root of the problem, they are espousing something
which they don't know is really heinous.  So I can give you the
benefit of the doubt that you were just raised Christian, and don't
really pay much attention to the whole thing other than being familiar
with carefully selected PG-13 Bible stories and going to mass with
family.  Those are the kind of Christians (Muslims, Jews, etc.) who I
respect because they're essentially good people who aren't really
familiar with the nasty stuff in the bible and thus aren't really
espousing any of it.

Once you tell me you have read the bible, and you do believe it is the
word of god cover to cover, and demonstrate fervent belief in the
awful terrible stuff inside, and call me a bad person for mocking the
stuff inside the bible, then I can't respect your beliefs, nor you as
a person.  Sorry.

>
> > As someone in the thread said before me, if you believe in a burning
> > bush that talks to people, I fully sup****t your right to your beliefs
> > without fear of persecution, but I also sup****t the right of other
> > people to laugh at you.
>
> Just out of curiosity, when does laughter become persecution?

Well, as someone else in this thread said, would you laugh at someone
who believed that 2 + 2 = 47?  I'd probably laugh inwardly and dismiss
him as a crank.  But when he started loudly demanding respect for his
beliefs in a public forum like this, and insulting other people who
don't "tolerate" his wacked out theory, then he is making himself a
target of ridicule.  Kinda like robgood, although to his immense
credit, he doesn't whine and complain that there should be special
rules that ****eld him from any criticism.  He stands up to it.

Now, being wrong about a math equation, or LOST, is an innocuous
example to make a point, but religion actually gets people killed, so
it's a lot more serious.