NOTE: Lame follow-up trick bypassed, coward.
Ubiquitous wrote:
> capt_malachias@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
>
>> "Ubiquitous" <weberm@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>>
>>> capt_malachias@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
>>>
>>>> "Ubiquitous" <weberm@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>
>
>
>>>>> That does not negate the fact that "Fahrenheit 9-11" was a
fictional
>>>>> movie, not a do***entary.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Upon what evidence are you basing that claim? Be specific.
>>>
>>>
>>> It's been highly do***ented, actually.
>>
>>
>> That it is not a do***entary? No, not that I have seen.
>
>
>
> I'm sure you wouldn't. Perhaps you should read something other than
that
> dog-earred stack of Michael Moore comic books for your "news".
Failure to back up your charge of F911 as fiction instead of a
do***entary noted, screw-head.
>>> I leave to you as a trivial exercise to look it up,
>>
>>
>> Nice dodge. Let me know when you grow the balls to actually answer
the question.
>
>
>
> In other words, you are not up to the task. Try these for starters:
>
> http://www.slate.com/id/2102723/
An opinion piece in which Hitchens himself is shy on facts, and the few
he does have have already been addressed, e.g. Clarke's admission that
he authorized the Saudi family exodus, were taken out of context. As
Clarke himself says,
"It is true that members of the Bin Laden family were among those who
left. We knew that at the time. I can't say much more in open session,
but it was a conscious decision with complete review at the highest
levels of the State Department and the FBI and the White House.”
http://www.michaelmoore.com/books-films/f911reader/index.php?id=17
> http://moorelies.com/
For some reason, this does not load in my browser.
> http://www.aaronsw.com/weblog/001376
Are you an idiot? This piece sup****ts F911, not criticizes it. Christ,
Ubi, do you read this stuff before you post it, or does it just come
squirting out of you like the flux?
From your own cite:
{To those who say} "It’s not really a do***entary because Moore is
making an argument."
{Aaron responds} "First, this is simply wrong on the facts. As no less
an expert than Roger Ebert has said “Most do***entaries, especially the
best ones, have an opinion and argue for it.” Anyone who knows about
film, or even anyone who’s watched a couple do***entaries, will tell you
the same thing."
> http://www.duamm.blogspot.com/
Another blog highly shy on facts. Let me know if you find any.
>
> Ask someone to assist you with Google for more.
Now try this, chowder head. This is a list of every source Moore used
for every statement in his film:
http://www.michaelmoore.com/books-films/f911reader/index.php?id=16
http://www.michaelmoore.com/books-films/f911reader/index.php?id=17
http://www.michaelmoore.com/books-films/f911reader/index.php?id=18
http://www.michaelmoore.com/books-films/f911reader/index.php?id=19
http://www.michaelmoore.com/books-films/f911reader/index.php?id=20
http://www.michaelmoore.com/books-films/f911reader/index.php?id=21
But of course, you won't do so because you are a coward who runs away
from the truth and an idiot. But if you do, please point out which ones
are lies.
>> Note that nothing you say below, even if true, shows this to be a
fictional movie and not a do***entary.
>
>
>
> In other words, you are not about to let the facts interfere with
your opinion. That pretty much says all we need to know about your
objectivity.
I've provided a cite from a film expert that says F911 is a do***entary.
Where's your cite, ostrich-boy?
>>> Off the top of my head:
>>>
>>> AlGore's "victory party" was footage from before the polls had
opened.
>>
>>
>> Is it anywhere claimed otherwise?
>
>
>
> Yes. The placement of the footage implied it.
Is it CLAIMED anywhere that it is otherwise, evader?
>>> Moore claimed that Fox News declared Bush the winner, causing the
others
>>> to mysteriously change their minds. Actually, Fox also declared
AlGore
>>> the winner and CNN was the first network to declare Bush the winner.
>>
>>
>> Proof?
>
>
>
> It's a matter of public record.
Liar.
http://www.michaelmoore.com/books-films/f911reader/index.php?id=16
FAHRENHEIT 9/11: Fox was the first network to call Florida for Bush.
Before that, some other networks had called Florida for Gore, and they
changed after Fox called it for Bush.
“With information provided from the Voter News Service, NBC was the
first network to project Gore the winner in Florida at 7:48 pm. At 7:50
pm ,CNN and CBS project Gore the winner in Florida as well.” By 8:02 pm
, all five networks and the Associated Press had called Gore the winner
in Florida. Even the VNS called Gore the winner at 7:52 pm. At 2:16 am,
Fox calls Florida for Bush, NBC follows at 2:16 am. ABC is the last
network to call the Florida for Bush, at 2:20 am, while AP and VNS never
call Florida for Bush. CNN:
http://www.cnn.com/2001/ALLPOLITICS/stories/02/02/
cnn.re****t/cnn.pdf
Ten minutes after the top of the hour, network excitement was again
beginning to build. At 2:16 a.m., the call was made: Fox News Channel,
with Bush's first cousin John Ellis running its election desk, was the
first to project Florida -- and the presidency -- for the Texas
governor. Within minutes, the other networks followed suit. "George
Bush, Governor of Texas will become the 43rd President of the United
States," CNN's Bernard Shaw announced atop a graphic montage of a
smiling Bush. "At 18 minutes past two o'clock Eastern time, CNN declares
that George Walker Bush has won Florida's 25 electoral votes and this
should put him over the top."PBS:
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/media/election2000/
election_night.html
FAHRENHEIT 9/11: The man who was in charge of the decision desk at FOX
on election night was Bush’s first cousin, John Ellis.
“John Ellis, a first cousin of George W. Bush, ran the network's
‘decision desk’ during the 2000 election, and Fox was the first to name
Bush the winner. Earlier, Ellis had made six phone calls to Cousin Bush
during the vote-counting.” William O’Rourke, “Talk Radio Key to GOP
Victory,” Chicago Sun-Times, December 3, 2002.
A Fox News consultant, John Ellis, who made judgments about presidential
‘calls’ on Election Night admits he was in touch with George W. Bush and
FL Gov. Jeb Bush by telephone several times during the night, but denies
breaking any rules. CNN, November 14, 2000;
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2000/
11/14/politics/main249357.shtml.
John Ellis, the Fox consultant who called Florida early for George Bush,
had to stop writing about the campaign for the Boston Globe because of
family ‘loyalty’ to Bush. CBS News, http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2000/
11/14/politics/main249357.shtml, November 14, 2000.
>>> The quote about Al Gore winning a third recount was taken out of
context
>>> (he was talking about a specific methodology that was not requested).
>>
>>
>> By "specific methodology" you are referring to "complete statewide
recount," of course. At the time, Gore had only suggested a partial
recount.
>
>
>
> The movie stated via that out-of-context clip that Al Gore would have
> won every recount. QED
Where's your proof that the movie stated that?
In fact, half of the recount scenarios would have given Gore the
victory. And none of that has to do with the other factors that
prevented Gore voters from casting a valid vote, such as the scrub list.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._presidential_election,_2000#Florida_election_results
"According to the study, only 3% of the 111,261 overvotes had markings
that could be interpreted as a legal vote. According to Anthony Salvado,
a political scientist at the University of California, Irvine, who acted
as a consultant on the media recount, most of the errors were caused by
ballot design, ballot wording, and efforts by voters to choose both a
president and a vice-president. For example, 21,188 of the Florida
overvotes, or nearly one-fifth of the total, originated from Duval
County, where the presidential race was split across two pages. Voters
were instructed to "vote every page". Half of the overvotes in Duval
County had one presidential candidate marked on each page, making their
vote illegal under Florida law. Salvado says that this error alone cost
Gore the election.
Including overvotes in the above totals for undervotes gives different
margins of victory:
Lenient standard. Gore by 332 votes.
Palm Beach standard. Gore by 242 votes.
Two-corner standard. Bush by 407 votes.
Strict standard. Bush by 152 votes."
>>> Moore mentioned the myth about black people being turned away from
>>> polls.
>>
>>
>> Myth? It was certainly asserted by a significant number of members
of Congress.
>
>
>
> Al Gore being one of them. I bet you believe he helped invent the
Internet
> and was the inspiration for Love Story too. The fact is they were
unable
> to find anyone who could back up their ridiculous claims. QED
Liar. The scrub list was used to remove valid voters who were
disproprotionately black, and it was done as a tactic to suppress the
black vote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florida_Central_Voter_File
"Voter demographics authority David Bositis, a senior research associate
at the Joint Center for Political and Economic Studies in Wa****ngton,
DC, reviewed The Nation's findings and concluded that the
purge-and-block program was "a patently obvious technique to
discriminate against black voters". [citation needed] He noted that
based on nationwide conviction rates, African-Americans would account
for 46% of the ex-felon group wrongly disfranchised. [citation needed]"
>>> Moore claimed that Bush never read his morning briefing which said
OBL
>>> had planned the attacks that day. Bush read the re****t which vaguely
>>> stated that they suspected that OBL was fixing to hijack a plane.
>>
>>
>> Proof?
>
>
>
> The actual brief, which read:
>
> We have not been able to corroborate some of the more
sensational threat re****ting, such as that from a [deleted text]
service in 1998 saying that Bin Laden wanted to hijack a U.S.
aircraft to gain the release of "Blind Shaykh" ‘Umar’ Abd aI-Rahman
and other U.S.-held extremists.
> Nevertheless, FBI information since that time indicates
patterns of suspicious activity in this country consistent with
preparations for hijackings or other types of attacks, including
recent surveillance of federal buildings in New York.
> QED
You're distorting what Moore said, when he said it, and what happened
thereafter. Not surprising given that you haven't even seen it:
http://www.michaelmoore.com/books-films/f911reader/index.php?id=17
FAHRENHEIT 9/11: The security briefing that was given to him on August
6, 2001, said that Osama bin Laden was planning to attack America by
hijacking airplanes.
August 6, 2001 Presidential Daily Brief (PDB): “Al-Qa'ida members --
including some who are US citizens -- have resided in or traveled to the
US for years, and the group apparently maintains a sup****t structure
that could aid attacks. Two al-Qa'ida members found guilty in the
conspiracy to bomb our Embassies in East Africa were US citizens, and a
senior EIJ member lived in California in the mid-1990s. A clandestine
source said in 1998 that a Bin Ladin cell in New York was recruiting
Muslim-American youth for attacks. We have not been able to corroborate
some of the more sensational threat re****ting, such as that from a ...
(redacted ****tion) ... service in 1998 saying that Bin Ladin wanted to
hijack a US aircraft to gain the release of ‘Blind Shaykh’ 'Umar 'Abd
al-Rahman and other US-held extremists. Nevertheless, FBI information
since that time indicates patterns of suspicious activity in this
country consistent with preparations for hijackings or other types of
attacks, including recent surveillance of federal buildings in New
York.” August 6, 2001, Bin Ladin Determined to Strike Inside US,
http://www.cnn.com/2004/images/
04/10/whitehouse.pdf
“The Aug. 6, 2001, do***ent, known as the President's Daily Brief, has
been the focus of intense scrutiny because it re****ted that bin Laden
advocated airplane hijackings, that al-Qaida sup****ters were in the
United States and that the group was planning attacks here.” Clarke J.
Scott, “Clarke Gave Warning on Sept. 4, 2001; Testimony Includes Apology
to Families of Sept. 11 Victims, Associated Press, March 25, 2004.
FAHRENHEIT 9/11: On August 6 th, 2001, George W. Bush went fi****ng.
“President Bush swung into vacation mode Monday, fi****ng for bass in his
pond, strolling the canyons on his 1,600-acre ranch, taking an
early-morning run. Associated Press, “President Bush Vacationing in
Texas,” August 6, 2001.
>>> Moore claimed that the Bin Ladens mysteriously were allowed to fly
>>> away while air traffic was still grounded. Actually, they were
>>> begining to allow flights that day.
>>
>>
>> Yes, they were. Flights were certainly limited, though, and there
is a great deal of controversy about this situation.
>
>
>
> Hardly. Flight restrictions were loosened and there was concern for
the safety
> of arabs.
Do you have a cite for this?
> BTW, the plane with Bin Laden's family left the following week. The
> only contreversy is in the minds of the kooky 9-11 conspiracists.
http://www.michaelmoore.com/books-films/f911reader/index.php?id=17
It should be noted that the US Customs and Border Protection do***ent
released by the Department of Homeland Security under the FOIA, Feb 24,
2004 lists 162 Saudi Nationals who flew out of the country between
9/11/2001 and 9/15/2001, departing from New York’s Kennedy air****t,
Wa****ngton’s Dulles, and Dallas Fort Worth.
http://www.judicialwatch.org/archive/
2004/homelandsecurity.pdf.
For an official list of Saudi Pass****t holders (names redacted) who flew
out of the country between 9.11.2001 – 9.15.2001, see US Customs and
Border Protection do***ent released by the Department of Homeland
Security under the FOIA, Feb 24, 2004;
http://www.judicialwatch.org/archive/
2004/homelandsecurity.pdf.
TheSt. Petersburg Times re****ted on Jun 9, 2004:
o "Two days after the Sept. 11 attacks, with most of the nation's air
traffic still grounded, a small jet landed at Tampa International
Air****t, picked up three young Saudi men and left. The men, one of them
thought to be a member of the Saudi royal family, were accompanied by a
former FBI agent and a former Tampa police officer on the flight to
Lexington, Ky. The Saudis then took another flight out of the country.”
o Moreover: “For nearly three years, White House, aviation and law
enforcement officials have insisted the flight never took place and have
denied published re****ts and widespread Internet speculation about its
purpose… The terrorism panel, better known as the 9/11 Commission, said
in April that it knew of six chartered flights with 142 people aboard,
mostly Saudis, that left the United States between Sept. 14 and 24,
2001. But it has said nothing about the Tampa flight… The 9/11
Commission, which has said the flights out of the United States were
handled appropriately by the FBI, appears concerned with the handling of
the Tampa flight.
o "Most of the aircraft allowed to fly in U.S. airspace on Sept. 13
were empty airliners being ferried from the air****ts where they made
quick landings on Sept. 11. The reopening of the airspace included paid
charter flights, but not private, nonrevenue flights.” Jean Heller,
“TIA now verifies flight of Saudis; The government has long denied that
two days after the 9/11 attacks, the three were allowed to fly.” St.
Petersburg Times, June 9, 2004
>>> Moore conveniently ignored what Iraq was like before we liberated it.
>>
>>
>> You are conveniently ignoring what it is like now.
And conveniently ignoring the lies Bush told to get into the war, and
how he kept changing his story.
> You really need to get a handle on your irrational hatred of George
Bush clouding your objective view of reality. Things are objectionally
better there than they were.
Civil war is hardly better:
http://www.registerguard.com/news/2006/09/02/a1.iraq.0902.p1.php?section=nation_world
http://english.ohmynews.com/ArticleView/article_view.asp?menu=A11100&no=314972&rel_no=1&back_url=
http://www.rferl.org/featuresarticle/2006/09/8B9C0912-A63F-4D9F-89CD-8A6A957AA7F5.html
As for conditions:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4825200.stm
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05079/474374.stm
(I guess having cell phones is good, but who needs electricity?)
>>> Moore took an injured veteran's comments out of context.
>>
>>
>> Nonsense. Explain exactly how his comments were taken out of context.
>
>
>
> Are you really this obtuse, or employing another weak diversionary
tactic?
You're the one trying to divery attention, Mikey.
> It's a simple matter to take a clip of a solider at Walter Reid
expressing
> his frustration in rehab and editing it to appear like he's answering
a question of Moore's choosing.
You clearly have not seen the film, since nothing of the kind takes place.
http://medianation.blogspot.com/2006/06/suing-michael-moore.html
"As best as I can tell, Damon's not claiming that Moore distorted that
interview in any way. Rather, Damon's upset because he's a sup****ter of
President Bush, and Moore incor****ated the clip into his notoriously
anti-Bush do***entary."
Oh look, there's that do***entary again. BBZZZZTTT! Sorry, Ubi, you
lose again.
>>> Moore described footage of soldiers removing a passed-out drunk
from the
>>> street as abuse arising from the war being illegal.
>>
>>
>> ?
>
>
>
> In other words, some footage of a drunk who had passed out on the
street was
> described as them humiliating a detained Iraqi soldier.
Ubi, once again you've shown nothing more than your incredible, bumbling
incompetence. Since you've not seen the film, you have no idead what
you're talking about. Moore himself says it's a drunk under the
blanket, and his point is that the soliders were abusing him. Nowhere
does Moore pretend he's not a drunk.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/film/3720569.stm
>>> Moore claimed that the liberal media sup****ted Bush and the war.
>>
>>
>> The media most certainly did sup****t the war. Rah! Rah! Rah!
>
>
>
> No, they didn't.
Yes, they did.
> In fact, they declared it another "Vietnam quagmire"
> before it even began.
>
Do you have a quote for this, O Brick-Headed One?
|
