On Wed, 07 May 2008 18:05:16 -0500 Jer <gdunn@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
| phil-news-nospam@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
|> On Wed, 07 May 2008 15:04:06 -0500 Jer <gdunn@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
|>
|> | The Sony line of LCD panels call it "Cinema mode" for their native
24fps
|> | playback feature, and those that don't still have a 3:2 pulldown
feature.
|>
|> I understood Cinema mode to be a feature that corrected 3:2 pulldown so
|> that each frame was shown 5 times at 120 Hz.
|
| Again, not all Sony LCD displays have 120Hz frame rates, but for those
| that do, yes (now that I'm reading this again), the 120Hz Motionflow
| eliminates the need for 3:2 pulldown. For those displays without
| Motionflow, 3:2 pulldown is still included.
We didn't need 3:2 pulldown before. A DVD player with a p24 disc can just
feed p24 video to a display which can just display it at p24. Done!
Motionflow might well improve on p24 by interpolating like frames and
simulating what would be between them to give a smoother motion. That can
be good.
But we didn't need 3:2 pulldown before. And we don't need 3:2 pulldown
with displays that lack Motionflow.
| From Sony.com for Bravia XBR series LCD displays (and the marketing
| hype is Sony's, not mine)
|
| 24p True Cinema (24p Input Capability)
|
| Many movies are filmed at 24 frames per second (fps) and prime time TV
| programs are recorded at 24p. Seizing on an op****tunity, some studios
| are taking a purist approach and encoding high definition video content
| such as Blu-ray Disc in 24p. Sony wisely takes advantage of this by
| including 24p output capability on our Blu-ray Disc players as well as
| including 24p input capability select 2007 BRAVIA TVs. The benefit
| images are smooth and natural looking. Once you experience 24p video it
| will be hard to view video without it.
What do they mean by "select"? Did they mean "in select" (e.g. that only
_some_ Bravia TVs have p24 input capability)?
Yeah, I know ... Sony marketing hype.
I want a DVD (not BR-DVD) player with p24 output.
| Motionflow? 120 Hz with Full HD high frame rate capability
|
| Taking motion performance to the next level requires innovation and
| expertise. Enter Sony's Motionflow? High Frame Rate technology.
| Motionflow? detects the incoming video signal and applies the
| appropriate processing for optimum motion reproduction. Taking full
| advantage of film sourced 24fps encoded content available on DVD and
| Blu-ray Disc, Motionflow? eliminates the need for 3:2 pulldown and
| delivers smooth, judder free video, faithfully preserving the integrity
| of the original film. When 60fps content is detected, Motionflow?
| doubles the amount of frames and uses real-time calculation to create a
| new level of natural motion reproduction. You'll experience movies and
| s****ts with a greater sense of realism than ever before.
This is where their marketing people really stretch it to the snapping
point. Motionflow does not eliminate the need for 3:2 pulldown because
there is no need for 3:2 pulldown (other than to convert p24 to i60 or
p60). As long as Motionflow properly detects that 3:2 pulldown was used
in an i60 or p60 video source, and converts it appropriate, that's great.
But for genuine p24 sources, which Motionflow can still improve on in
other ways, there was no need for 3:2 pulldown at all.
|> |> | Further, it should also be noted that not all DVD players will
output
|> |> | 24fps natively, but will use a feature to convert 24fps to 30fps,
often
|> |> | called "3:2 pulldown" for displays that only do 30fps - best
implemented
|> |> | with a Faroudja engine (hint: Oppo), IMO, although there are other
|> |> | technologies also using the '3:2 pulldown' moniker.
|> |>
|> |> Which, of course, sucks. OTOH, some TVs re****t an ability to detect
and
|> |> fix the 3:2 pulldown. They'd have to display at some multiple of
24fps to
|> |> achieve that. Some do work at 120fps which could.
|> |
|> | The 3:2 pulldown has something to do with strategically inserting a
|> | composite frame to achieve 30fps from 24fps source, and yes, some do
|> | this better than others. Since I have an extensive DVD library here
|> | which is used almost daily, I decided it best to have 24fps native
|> | somewhere in the food chain.
|>
|> It's actually doing it on a field by field basis, for interlaced
output.
|> If the source is progressive and they are outputting p24 as p30, then
|> there is an inserted frame ever 4 frames to make 5 frames. That would
|> actually look worse.
|
| I have both an old 480i and 480p DVD players. I've tried both with the
| same source material and they both look virtually identical. I believe
| the Sony display auto-senses the i or p material (depending on which
| player), and automagically does the 'right' thing for each, I can't see
| a difference all else being the same.
Which 480p is that? 480p24? 480p30? 480p60?
|> The big question is, what is actually going over the wire between DVD
|> player and TV when p24 content is playing. If there is composite
output
|> then you might be able to check on that with an oscilloscope.
|
| I use HDMI for everything that accepts it, and component where it's not.
Generally wise.
I see the Vizio 47 inch TV has 4 HDMI inputs. That can be helpful.
|> | I did unscientifically test SD DVD's while locking the BD player and
TV
|> | into 30fps mode, and the Faroudja engine in the AVR did well enough I
|> | honestly couldn't tell much difference. In the end though, I allow
the
|> | BD player output disc native (24/30fps), pass-through the AVR with
the
|> | Faroudja engine hobbled, and let the TV do what it does best, and
|> | everybody is happy.
|>
|> Can you lock it into 24fps mode?
|>
|
|
| I don't think I can based on how I understand the menus - 24/30fps auto
| or 30fps only.
I guess not. So then you need to be sure that your source material really
is p24 to be sure you are outputting real p24 content.
I need to find me a p24 capable DVD player and some p24 DVDs (a test DVD
that
tests all the formats would be nice).
--
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|
| Phil Howard KA9WGN (email for humans: first name in lower case at
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|
